Episode 13: How to let go of expectations from others

00:00

we acknowledge the yuggera and kaurna

00:01

nations as traditional custodians of the

00:03

land on which we work live and learn and

00:06

their continuing connection with the

00:07

land waters and community we pay our

00:09

respects to them and their elders past

00:11

and present all content related to this

00:13

program is for general informational

00:15

purposes only and contains stories and

00:17

discussion around mental health that may

00:20

be disturbing to some listeners if you

00:22

are concerned about yourself or someone

00:24

you know please seek professional and

00:26

individual advice and support

00:28

more details are contained in our show

00:30

notes

00:32

it’s 8 15. traffic is heavy on the

00:34

northern approach to the city so watch

00:36

out for those bottlenecks as you enter

00:38

the cbd as promised we’ve got deflector

00:41

with us this morning to tell us about

00:43

the new film captain camouflage and the

00:45

shield of invisibility welcome deflector

00:48

thanks great to be here

00:49

[Applause]

00:51

we still need to calibrate

00:54

in case you hadn’t guessed we’ve got

00:56

deflector wired up to our trusty lie

00:58

detector for a bit of fun this morning

01:01

while we have a chat about the film

01:03

another super release from the team

01:05

generica franchise to take us as far

01:08

away from reality as possible and that’s

01:10

never a bad thing is it no not at all

01:14

oh a little machine’s just raring to go

01:17

should we just get going sure let’s do

01:19

this who’s

01:21

why

01:22

01:23

01:24

anyway

01:28

okay a couple of questions first a warm

01:30

up did you have breakfast this morning

01:33

yes

01:34

do you play the lead character in the

01:36

film captain camouflage and the shield

01:39

of invisibility yes

01:41

fantastic let’s play

01:45

did you enjoy making this film yeah i

01:47

had a ball

01:49

01:50

really

01:52

sorry you didn’t enjoy making it oh

01:55

um well you know there’s always moments

01:57

here and there you think back on and you

01:58

do differently you know fair enough it’s

02:00

not always a case of black and white hey

02:03

now there’s been some hot gossip

02:04

floating around about you and the

02:06

leading lady did you two get it on while

02:10

filming

02:11

no i can safely say we did not

02:17

i guess your wife might have had

02:18

something to say about that hey i’m

02:21

pretty sure she would so there was

02:23

nobody else on set you fancied ah no

02:27

[Applause]

02:30

02:31

no no no really

02:34

maybe we should move on things seem to

02:36

be going really well for you at the

02:38

moment you must feel like you’re on top

02:39

of the world yeah totally i couldn’t be

02:42

happier

02:43

oh really what’s really happening

02:45

deflector well okay i’m gonna be honest

02:48

okay so i just haven’t been getting

02:51

great sleep lately

02:53

is that all that’s going on yeah pretty

02:55

much

02:56

i mean i’ve got a lot on my mind at the

02:58

moment

02:59

life must be pretty hectic with your new

03:02

superstar lifestyle yes

03:04

definitely

03:06

so these thoughts that are keeping you

03:07

awake any exciting ideas floating around

03:10

for the next project i’ve got a few

03:13

ideas floating around

03:14

i don’t want to put you on the spot but

03:16

what kind of planes are you hatching oh

03:18

look it’s mainly really thoughts about

03:21

upcoming auditions

03:23

and notes my director gave me on set for

03:25

the movie and how grateful i am for

03:27

everything that’s being thrown at me

03:28

right now

03:29

um do you want to clarify any of that

03:32

like what’s being thrown at you just all

03:34

the great opportunities

03:36

exclusive invitations

03:38

fine i’m just struggling a bit with the

03:40

success at the moment that’s kind of

03:43

normal i suppose for someone who’s

03:45

shocked to start him like you have

03:47

recently but you’re okay yeah yeah yeah

03:50

i’m fine

03:52

something tells me you might not be as

03:54

well as you’re making out are you really

03:56

okay

03:59

no not really

04:02

to be honest

04:04

it all kind of gets a bit too much

04:05

sometimes

04:06

there are rumors around there was an

04:08

issue around your contract for the film

04:10

has that got anything to do with it no

04:14

um so is it the contract that’s the

04:16

problem or the rumors i can’t talk about

04:19

my contract it’s strictly confidential

04:21

fair enough obviously lots swimming

04:23

around in your head there everything

04:25

good at home with mrs deflector yeah

04:28

couldn’t be better

04:30

04:31

[Music]

04:32

look

04:35

it’s just not the happiest of times for

04:37

us at the moment

04:38

we’re both really busy and hardly see

04:40

each other okay

04:43

all we do is fight at the moment and

04:45

we’re sleeping in separate beds

04:47

are you happy have you got the scoop you

04:48

wanted hey hey hey hey it’s just a game

04:53

none of this is serious

04:56

do you um

04:57

can we stop this now i’m feeling a bit

04:59

exposed ah sure we can honestly

05:02

sometimes backs our pantry not ready for

05:05

hey maybe we can have you back another

05:07

time for another game would you like

05:09

that yep absolutely

05:11

i’d love to

05:13

that question how are you i don’t want

05:15

to know the answer and chances are we

05:17

don’t actually want to tell them hey

05:19

andy how are you today

05:21

this

05:22

is reframe of mind

05:25

that wasn’t an answer the podcast that

05:27

cuts through the platitudes and gets to

05:29

the core of living authentically

05:31

challenging our assumptions and

05:32

improving mental health with the

05:33

guidance of good science philosophy and

05:35

learning from other people’s lived

05:36

experiences we’re your hosts andy leroy

05:39

and louise poole

05:41

no no really how are you we talk about

05:44

how you are in this podcast that’s all

05:45

we’ve talked about for 13

05:48

12 episodes so far now andy how are you

05:50

yeah look you know what i am good i am

05:53

good thank you um i

05:55

as we all kind of unfurl during this

05:57

episode i used to get triggered by

05:59

certain things that i no longer get

06:01

triggered by and if i do get triggered

06:03

by them not quite so much or in the

06:05

quite the same ways so um i’m i am good

06:08

thank you how are you i’m i’m i’m i’m

06:10

good at the moment actually i think

06:12

things are

06:15

oh god the light detector

06:17

[Laughter]

06:20

sorry go on have we become human lie

06:22

detectors in this series

06:25

do you know i sit down when i sit down

06:26

with my psychologist every time every

06:28

time i’ve seen her and i must have seen

06:30

her like 30 40 times now like

06:33

down and she’s like how are you i go

06:34

good thanks and then i sit down she goes

06:36

06:37

how are you

06:39

[Music]

06:41

and that’s what you’re paying for

06:45

because we are so used to deflecting and

06:48

not actually telling people how we

06:49

really feel and i think there’s a few

06:51

reasons for that one part of it is

06:53

people don’t really want to know the

06:54

answer to the question when they ask

06:56

it’s just a pleasantry and i think the

06:58

other thing is that we don’t want to

07:01

tell people how we really feel we are we

07:03

spend a lot of time minimizing how we

07:04

feel so we don’t have to admit it

07:06

whether it’s to ourselves or anybody

07:08

else you know i think a big part of that

07:09

also is kind of how we sometimes wander

07:12

through life you know how prepared we

07:13

feel for conversations that we might not

07:16

actually be ready for like last episode

07:18

when we spoke to derek mcmanus who used

07:20

to be in the star group which was like a

07:23

tactical kind of operations group in the

07:25

south australian police and he was shot

07:27

14 times in less than five seconds

07:30

almost died yep amazing story ouch

07:33

doesn’t really kind of sum it up it’s

07:35

scary it is an amazing story but he told

07:38

us he’d already prepared for the worst

07:40

before that ever happened

07:41

the greater the risk the greater the

07:43

planning there are still lots of times

07:45

in my life where i go ah

07:47

i don’t know about this one but let’s

07:49

have a crack let’s see how it goes and

07:51

there’s very little risk management that

07:53

goes into it but the risk overall is

07:55

very small it might be that i will twist

07:58

an ankle or i might lose twenty dollars

08:01

in a gambling or a betting situation

08:04

it’s not going to destroy my life and

08:06

it’s like oh well you know even if the

08:07

worst case scenario goes it’s only going

08:09

to be a hiccup the more dangerous the

08:11

situation is the more planning the more

08:14

consideration we’ve got to give to it

08:15

and that’s when risk management really

08:17

comes to the fore most of the stuff that

08:19

we manage on a day-to-day basis we’ve

08:21

done it so often we actually go through

08:23

the risk management in our mind without

08:25

even thinking about it it runs through

08:27

the scenario of i’ve done this before

08:29

last time i did it it turned out well or

08:30

last time i did it i turned out badly

08:32

but i know why it turned out badly so

08:34

i’m going to do it differently this time

08:35

let’s go now when you go into a larger

08:38

risk you’ve got to start taking a larger

08:40

look at how you manage that and

08:43

possibility of being shot and injured

08:44

possibility of being shot and killed

08:46

that’s when i sat down and had that

08:47

discussion with my wife this is a very

08:50

serious risk the impact could be

08:52

catastrophic on my life and your life

08:54

are we both prepared to take that risk

08:56

do we have the resources to be able to

08:58

manage it um and if the worst case

08:59

scenario happened that i did die are we

09:02

already in an emotional position where

09:04

we have our mindset that it was

09:07

conscious we know what we were doing

09:09

derek had planned ahead for the real

09:10

prospect of getting shot and killed in

09:12

the line of duty

09:14

thankfully he survived yeah miraculously

09:16

he told us he didn’t suffer ptsd from

09:18

the incident he actually puts it down to

09:20

durable thinking something that can be

09:22

applied to any situation where we

09:24

typically need to test the boundaries of

09:25

our comfort zones now this is reframing

09:28

an action we call this series reframe of

09:30

mind

09:31

and you know the concept of reframing i

09:33

think is something that we should

09:34

probably have a bit of a chat about hey

09:36

yes this episode we’re going to deep

09:38

dive into the concept of reframing and

09:40

speak to motivational speaker chris

09:42

helder who shares his method to change

09:44

his thinking and reframe situations

09:47

we have to allow ourselves to be human i

09:49

you know i felt terrible about that i

09:50

felt sad about that i felt sad about

09:52

what i was watching happen and i mean i

09:54

do joke no one wants a sad motivational

09:56

speaker i mean and uh and and you know

09:59

we’re allowed to feel and then come up

10:01

with a useful belief

10:03

and our mindfulness expert annie harvey

10:05

shares her practical tips to reframe our

10:07

thoughts around situations that are out

10:09

of our practical control

10:11

i have to practice what i preach that is

10:13

the big thing about anybody that works

10:15

in the area of well-being you know

10:16

everyone will say well you you work in

10:18

well-being and mental health you’ll be

10:20

fine or you can’t burn out or whatever

10:21

so i have to really try and practice

10:23

what i preach

10:24

so let’s talk reframing because we’re up

10:27

to episode 13 i don’t think we’ve

10:28

mentioned reframing yet even though

10:30

that’s

10:31

obviously was the most important thing

10:34

to come out of everything for us or one

10:36

of the most important things because we

10:37

named our bloody series after it

10:39

yeah well i think specifically and here

10:41

comes the reset the 12 episode and 90

10:43

years of combined i mean also we love to

10:45

pun and re we did re reframe

10:48

frame of mind

10:50

get it exactly i mean if nobody’s got it

10:52

by now

10:53

it’s is it funny if i’ve got to explain

10:55

it i don’t know i don’t know so you

10:57

could go reframe of mind as in reframe

10:59

or re as in regarding frame of mind

11:03

anyway i think sally goldman would love

11:05

that because she loves a pun but let’s

11:07

move on

11:09

to the reset

11:11

or reset

11:13

of 12 episodes so far 90 years of

11:16

combined living in 30 seconds or less

11:18

go okay in our personal story so far

11:21

i’ve been gaining confidence after my

11:22

high profile radio job ended in brisbane

11:24

and andy’s been learning to make better

11:26

choices for himself that support his own

11:28

needs rather than making decisions for

11:29

himself to please others we’re starting

11:31

our business together at this point of

11:32

the story and we want to create

11:33

inclusive programs that are empower and

11:35

inspire while amplifying voices that

11:37

don’t traditionally get air time also

11:39

this part of the story that we’re

11:40

talking about is happening last year

11:41

when we were recording these interviews

11:43

to begin with with people like derek and

11:45

so some of the references that you might

11:47

hear and things are a little dated

11:48

because

11:49

you know

11:50

armageddon everything’s at war the

11:52

world’s moving on at a pace of a decade

11:54

per month so

11:56

there you have it the city i live in is

11:58

underwater as we’re recording so time is

12:00

moving pretty quick in 2022. yeah

12:02

absolutely um you know not to mention

12:04

the um the invasion of ukraine so you

12:06

know we’re very conscious that some of

12:08

these references

12:09

are outdated in such a short span of

12:11

time but they’re all still relevant like

12:13

an old coat you know you can still pull

12:15

it out of the cupboards

12:18

i got in early with the analogy i mean

12:20

in now 30 seconds or less we forgot to

12:22

mention that for 12 episodes now andy

12:25

has been giving us some of

12:26

the worst analogies that

12:31

oh come on

12:32

he makes them up he loves the dick he

12:34

makes them up and they don’t make any

12:35

sense so what’s this pulling out an old

12:38

coat from the cupboard that you don’t

12:39

wear anymore yeah because you know it’s

12:42

still useful even though it’s a bit

12:43

dated okay i know people will call it

12:46

band splaining but i just like to do an

12:47

analogy every now and then what’s the

12:49

coat look like it’s furry it it’s long

12:52

it’s a long coat and it’s very fur

12:54

anymore i didn’t say it was first it was

12:57

furry is it covered in cat hair probably

12:59

yeah most definitely if it’s out of my

13:01

cupboard

13:02

also just want to say back on the

13:04

reframe thing you know like

13:06

you’re resetting the reframe already i’m

13:08

resetting the reframe you know like

13:10

we’ve said we’ve taken 13 episodes to

13:11

get to the actual thing that inspired us

13:15

to name it name a series after it and

13:17

derek’s is an example of a great way to

13:20

reframe something so he’s taken in his

13:22

case a conversation a conversation

13:24

before he even got shot so conversation

13:27

he reframed a conversation before he had

13:29

to reframe it he was

13:30

pretty that’s right he pre-framed it he

13:33

did

13:34

so just to kind of step back to how he

13:37

did that though like he had the

13:38

conversation which would ordinarily make

13:41

somebody sad or depressed or even

13:44

fearful to think about i could get

13:46

killed in this job but he reframed that

13:48

conversation to something useful for

13:50

himself because it meant that he could

13:52

plan ahead for it because it might

13:54

happen yeah so derek’s story is that

13:56

extreme example of something that can go

13:58

wrong but most of us don’t have to think

13:59

about the prospect of getting killed

14:01

when at work in the line of duty our

14:03

particular challenges might look like

14:05

something like starting a business um

14:07

for us at that time we spoke to derek it

14:09

definitely looked like that still does

14:12

by the way the uh the prospect of income

14:14

taking a long time to materialize long

14:19

time a lot longer than we would have

14:21

liked

14:22

you know at that time as well we were

14:24

thinking maybe nobody’s gonna care what

14:26

we have to say that could be a thing um

14:28

it could be something like a paper cut

14:30

that comes along and wrecks our day

14:32

absolutely and according to derrick

14:33

that’s just fine too

14:35

my brother is a uh

14:38

entrepreneurial type person who’s run

14:40

his own business is now general manager

14:42

of an air conditioning company and i

14:44

laugh riley because he says derek i

14:46

don’t care how many risks you take and

14:47

how much pain you went through when you

14:49

got shot if i get a paper cut in the

14:51

office i’m still going to whinge about

14:53

it because it damn well

14:56

so it kind of puts it in perspective and

14:58

and i i completely respect that and that

15:00

puts in perspective for everybody else

15:02

as well people go oh my gosh after

15:04

hearing what you’ve been through what

15:06

i’m going through is nothing no no what

15:08

you are going through is still

15:09

significant for your life and you know

15:12

i’ve been shot many times and and got

15:14

through that pain

15:16

but if i twist my ankle or hurt my thumb

15:20

i still feel the pain and it still

15:22

troubles me you know 24 7 until that

15:25

pain is gone so everything has to be put

15:27

in perspective of how it’s affecting

15:29

your life at the moment and we’ve got to

15:30

deal with that at this stage of reality

15:32

and and give it credence and and deal

15:35

with it just the same as my brother

15:36

deals with his paper cuts

15:38

he would probably hate me if he ever

15:39

hears me talking about his paper cuts

15:41

like this

15:42

um but he but he very consciously said

15:44

it and he said a lot in front of lots of

15:46

other people because he likes to make

15:47

fun of me as well

15:49

but the reality is that stolen book for

15:51

that child is their reality and the same

15:54

process has worked for that child has

15:56

worked for the fighter pilots has worked

15:57

for you and your podcasts has worked for

16:00

me in my business now it is a universal

16:02

thing

16:03

so stepping back 12 months our worst

16:06

case scenario has happened no harpy this

16:08

time we said we said we’re not going to

16:10

throw back

16:12

we’re not going to throw back to too

16:13

many previous episodes because people

16:15

might be listening to this the first

16:16

time so it could be we’re only allowed

16:18

one throwback an episode and we just had

16:20

it no more enough all right no more and

16:23

to be honest harpo has left me so that’s

16:25

the cat and again if they didn’t hear

16:27

the previous episode they don’t know you

16:28

have a cat called hapo there are 12 to

16:30

choose from go back and listen today

16:36

and that’s how you cross promote we’ll

16:37

start a bingo card

16:39

what can you hear in the background of

16:41

our episodes is it a cat meowing is it a

16:44

dog barking will andy make an analogy in

16:46

the first 10 minutes of the episode

16:48

so 12 months ago look for all intended

16:51

purposes it could be 7 000 years with

16:53

the way people are describing events at

16:54

the moment

16:57

it feels like it happened in 1970 um it

17:00

does yeah it really does before either

17:04

it has been a long 12 months we would

17:07

say i suppose our worst case scenario

17:09

happened we

17:10

started our business we started

17:12

producing and publishing a podcast

17:13

called elevating experts which was

17:16

something we designed as uh i reckon a

17:18

sales magnet so we thought if we help

17:21

teach people some of the skills that you

17:23

know they need in podcasting we might

17:25

attract clients who want to work with

17:27

people to make podcasts almost like a

17:29

bit of a portfolio and an invitation to

17:32

come and work with us and you know we

17:33

think the episodes are fabulous and

17:35

we’re just as funny on there if we’re

17:37

not talking about mental health but

17:38

we’re talking about how to organize your

17:40

business and write content

17:42

17:43

did it work

17:45

yeah we had some exciting moments

17:47

sometimes we’d log in and go oh we had

17:48

this many listeners the last week and

17:51

you know the numbers were there but

17:54

but then our podcast provider decided to

17:56

rejig the way they download their

17:57

numbers and what was looking quite

17:59

promising suddenly looked untenable and

18:02

when i say that it looks completely

18:04

completely bottomless

18:06

and not in a good way and then we

18:07

changed podcast providers after that for

18:09

this one we did we did so we love a cast

18:12

yeah well they can pay us for it sponsor

18:14

cast um

18:16

we released elevating experts just after

18:18

we had been speaking to hugh kearns from

18:20

episode nine because he called us out

18:22

and said that we needed to take action

18:25

because we were

18:26

experiencing our own imposter syndrome

18:28

um because we had had when we spoke to

18:30

hugh curns we had what did we have like

18:33

14 episodes sitting there ready to

18:35

release and we hadn’t taken away

18:37

religious release exactly yeah because

18:39

if we put them out there and people

18:40

don’t like them that’s the worst case

18:41

scenario we put them out there and we

18:43

don’t get any clients we’ve done all

18:44

this work for nothing we were showcasing

18:46

our skills as content creators who are

18:48

hoping to get some business and you know

18:50

the strategies we employed with all the

18:52

work that goes into it

18:55

i mean we’ve joked about it being the

18:56

most um expensive hobby in the world it

18:59

was basically like a full-time job

19:00

creating it with zero income there were

19:03

one or two potential customers at one

19:04

point yep but uh they ended up ghosting

19:07

us very early in the piece

19:16

there’s this image of a ghost dog that

19:18

andy found once and it’s literally a dog

19:20

with a sheet over its face and it’s got

19:23

two eye holes cut out i think it’s like

19:25

a halloween costume and every time

19:27

someone ghosted us next to their stuff

19:30

in our one note we just put this big

19:32

picture of ghost it goes dark

19:35

and then someone double ghosted us like

19:38

and then we found two ghost dogs

19:40

together in a photo yep and they got the

19:42

double ghost storm i i think maybe for

19:45

19:46

the show notes but if you google that

19:48

i can assure you the images will pull it

19:50

up you know what i’m pretty sure we can

19:51

probably add the ghost dogs

19:53

i think we can

19:55

for your viewing pleasure we can

19:57

probably add that um but we’re still

20:00

here though have you noticed yeah um but

20:02

this was 12 months ago and you know in

20:04

our stories we were kind of still at the

20:06

point in the end of

20:07

of what landed us here in the first

20:09

place which is

20:10

your career ending and my father dying

20:13

and the family dynamics changing so you

20:14

know these emotional impacts were

20:16

starting to bite us as well and on top

20:18

of that very early in the piece you know

20:20

partners would kind of say oh you know

20:21

you’re making money what’s going on you

20:23

know and i can tell you that there is

20:25

probably nothing more

20:28

anxiety-inducing he’s not listening to

20:30

this it’s okay go for it yeah then

20:32

feeling like you’re failing and then

20:34

also

20:35

someone you know not intentionally

20:37

trying to call you a failure but drawing

20:39

attention to one of the kpis you’re

20:42

putting yourself aka making money and

20:43

you’re not making any so that kind of

20:46

yeah that kind of made me feel great we

20:48

had a couple of like we said about our

20:50

ghost dogs we had a couple of really

20:51

promising meetings with you know

20:54

high-profile companies like everything

20:56

seemed to be going great and they

20:58

propped them and it was like on the up

21:01

and up and i at one point uh went out

21:03

and said to my partner at the time you

21:06

can see how that worked out

21:07

spoiler alert um

21:10

phrase itself my partner at the time had

21:12

had a really good day today you know we

21:15

spoke to

21:16

this person at this business and they’re

21:18

really keen and they they’re getting

21:19

back to us oh and i really wanted to you

21:21

know talk about it and share that and

21:23

celebrate that win that we had even

21:25

though it wasn’t a financial win yet

21:27

because it’s the it’s on the way to the

21:30

wind you know you’ve got to celebrate

21:31

those and the first thing he says is but

21:33

did you make any money and that was

21:36

really disheartening and every time i

21:38

tried to bring up the good progress we

21:41

were making those questions around money

21:43

kept coming back

21:44

and that really does impact that

21:47

self-worth that you have as a person

21:50

psychologically because money is so

21:53

intricately tied to our value it’s

21:56

pretty hard to live in a modern society

21:58

without it you know money’s important

22:00

but also

22:01

we were building something from the

22:03

ground up based on a technology and also

22:07

you know in podcasting as popular as it

22:09

has become it’s still very new and even

22:12

now companies are only just starting to

22:14

realize the advertising potential

22:16

through it and so

22:17

we’re working at that flash point of

22:20

innovation as far as communication is

22:22

concerned you know we’re not denying

22:23

that money is important

22:25

if we’d be the last people to say that

22:27

but yeah and again it’s not some kind of

22:29

toxic positivity angle that’s saying

22:31

something to the effect of you know

22:32

money isn’t everything just enjoy life

22:34

yes because tell that to the person

22:37

whose ability to pay for even the most

22:38

basic of things has run dry you know

22:40

this is about how we’re still tying our

22:43

identity at that point of time 12 months

22:45

ago to what we did and the money we made

22:47

from it so for you you know you were a

22:49

leading morning show radio host on

22:51

commercial radio you led the surveys for

22:54

almost eight years and having come from

22:55

an audience of six hundred thousand

22:57

people a week to the prospect of nobody

23:00

came to listen it was gut wrenching it

23:02

was really hard i was there yes yes i

23:04

mean

23:05

god that was that was such a that was a

23:08

really prominent fear of mind that

23:11

before i even left that job that if i

23:14

did something else that nobody would

23:16

care that if i finally did to make

23:19

things that weren’t hiding behind

23:21

anybody else’s voice and put my values

23:23

in my heart and all that at the center

23:25

of what i did that nobody would give a

23:28

23:29

and if nobody cared then what was my

23:32

worth and what was my value if i wasn’t

23:34

getting positive feedback from somebody

23:37

else like with radio in the form of

23:39

ratings or invitations to things or you

23:43

know people just thinking in general oh

23:45

that’s a really cool job like or having

23:48

conversations with me if that feedback

23:50

wasn’t there anymore what was my value

23:53

because i had tied my value to the job

23:56

that i did the persona that i had it was

24:00

all in there um i mean we didn’t have no

24:03

listeners for elevating experts but it’s

24:05

a lot to go from 600 000 listeners a

24:07

week to a grind for everyone especially

24:12

the quality of the content that i was

24:14

making didn’t change in fact i think it

24:16

got better but not having the power of

24:19

an already existing media conglomerate

24:22

24:23

to push you to tell you that you’re

24:24

there while you’re doing everything

24:26

on your own and still making the quality

24:28

content it’s um it’s really hard like

24:31

it’s really tough to feel like

24:33

you know nobody cares what you have to

24:35

say thankfully we’ve got some distance

24:37

from that now as well and you know we

24:39

can see now there was something else at

24:40

play there because

24:42

as much as we wanted it to be a success

24:44

we weren’t actually telling anybody

24:45

about it we actually figured that the

24:48

program we were making

24:50

was

24:51

us telling people about what we do

24:53

but you know taking another step back

24:56

from that we needed to promote the show

24:57

we needed to promote all of that so in

25:00

effect we needed to do almost this kind

25:02

of whole push with promoting and

25:05

marketing and publicity of the podcast

25:08

which we anticipated would show people

25:09

how good we are what we do to make them

25:11

want to work with us we weren’t telling

25:13

anybody about it so you know it sounds

25:14

pretty dumb on the surface

25:16

but you know think about all those times

25:17

that someone might have called you an

25:19

attention seeker or all those times that

25:21

you’ve seen someone on the end of a tall

25:23

poppy syndrome where they’ve got their

25:25

got their comeuppance for having the

25:26

audacity to have reached the pinnacle of

25:29

success and actually owned it when we

25:31

say we told no one about it is i mean we

25:33

told hugh kearns about it and then

25:35

didn’t air that interview with him for

25:36

another 12 months

25:41

okay but we after we spoke to him we did

25:43

release it i have built a decent

25:46

instagram following you know and if

25:48

you’re rich in instagram it’s like

25:50

you’re rich in monopoly money but there

25:52

is a good community of people there and

25:54

to announce the launch of our elevating

25:57

experts podcast i did a post it was one

26:00

story on my any excuse for fashion

26:02

account

26:03

at 9 00 pm at night yeah in a badly lit

26:06

car park that i filmed on the way out of

26:08

the movies um

26:11

it’s like oh that’s right guys i’m

26:12

running a business now

26:14

check it out you know we weren’t posting

26:17

we we no okay so that point in the story

26:20

we’d started our business it was already

26:23

at that stage

26:24

i think about seven or eight months

26:26

since i’d finished up at the radio so i

26:28

did on my other instagram account have

26:30

quite a few thousand followers that were

26:32

really keen on

26:33

finding out what i was doing and i’ve

26:35

pretty much i’ve i’ve dog ghosted that

26:37

account

26:38

in the past two years maybe you can post

26:40

a dog ghost up on that feed i think in

26:43

two years i’ve post i went from posting

26:45

like every second day to posting you

26:47

know six times in the whole year so and

26:49

look you know to be fair i think there’s

26:51

other stuff connected to that for you

26:53

emotionally

26:54

as well that’s what we’re talking yeah

26:56

there is that as well yeah so yeah i

26:58

mean with all the skills and experience

27:00

you know 20 years in commercial radio

27:03

it’s really hard to see why 2021 louise

27:05

isn’t backing herself you know was it

27:07

because she didn’t really believe in

27:08

welcome change media enough was it

27:10

because she didn’t believe in herself

27:11

enough i mean

27:13

do you want the answers on this lie

27:14

detector

27:16

[Laughter]

27:18

it’s a good example of this is what i

27:21

called the hockey story

27:23

so in my first commercial radio job um

27:26

back in invaria it was town of 10 000

27:28

people so great place to be a big fish

27:31

in a small pond and you know being on

27:32

the local commercial radio that is big

27:34

fish in small pond territory absolutely

27:37

that is huge big fish in small pond

27:39

territory and i was signing up for

27:41

hockey one day uh i was just joining a

27:44

social team mixed team casual thing i

27:47

don’t play anymore by the way people who

27:49

play hockey are very aggressive they

27:50

kept coming at me with the puck and the

27:53

and the what is the broken shins

27:55

that kind of thing i mean i enjoyed it

27:57

but no i don’t need an injury thanks

28:00

um didn’t sign up for that i just wanted

28:02

to have fun not have a broken uncle

28:05

so when i was signing up for that the

28:07

person was taking my registration and

28:08

they they were they weren’t necessarily

28:10

rude but they didn’t they didn’t give a

28:12

they were just there doing their

28:13

job and just like chicken flick yeah

28:16

chicken flick you know he’s anyway what

28:18

what’s your name louise ah what do you

28:20

do louise she’s filling out the form i’m

28:22

a radio announcer

28:24

you’re already an answer

28:26

where are you

28:27

i said i’ll work for

28:29

gem fm the

28:31

commercial radio station

28:33

28:34

you’re louise

28:36

[Laughter]

28:38

and so this person went from sullen

28:41

just get out of my face let’s get this

28:43

done to her entire persona changing when

28:46

she thought that there might be

28:48

something special about me that and i’m

28:50

projecting this on to her based on pr

28:54

experience and other experiences

28:56

that she might be the beneficiary of

28:59

and maybe in a town like invariable

29:01

where you’re a big fish in a small pond

29:03

it might be notoriety instead of free

29:06

tickets to go see someone it might be a

29:07

free cd back in those days it would have

29:10

been a free cd we did still have cd

29:12

players that idea of that recognition

29:16

that known-ness that was really

29:18

intrinsically linked up with my sense of

29:20

self-worth

29:21

because i did notice as well after i

29:23

left that job in commercial radio we’ve

29:26

already spent 12 episodes in what i call

29:29

louise slams the media um

29:32

and this maybe this one is louise slams

29:34

the people who interact with the media

29:37

29:38

no no no not not the listeners i mean

29:42

like like publicity for example it’s a

29:45

very what can you do for me game so i

29:49

was really i suppose disheartened to see

29:51

that when i was no longer in that

29:53

position

29:54

that people who may have been my friend

29:58

in inverted commerce weren’t anymore

30:01

when i was of no use to them anymore

30:03

didn’t hear from them yeah

30:05

not all not all of them by the way there

30:07

are a couple there’s one publicist in

30:09

particular who i think should form a

30:11

part of a story in another episode

30:13

because her invite for me to come and do

30:15

something actually helped me leave the

30:17

house for the first time in months but

30:19

that’s how i had tied my value as a

30:21

person to the job that i did and why the

30:23

prospect of nobody caring what i make

30:25

now um

30:27

was rough

30:29

the non-cliff notes version of it and

30:31

look you know like there’s a lot in

30:33

there to unpack and i think you know

30:35

where we’re going today as well is

30:37

we’ve got distance from all of this

30:39

stuff now and we’re actually making

30:40

choices in accordance with our own

30:42

values and what’s important to us now

30:44

you know so you know years ago i

30:46

attended a seminar and the facilitator

30:48

spoke about you know anyone can do

30:50

anything they want to do you know so

30:52

it’s that typical thing that kind of

30:54

people misconstrue as you know those

30:56

motivational speakers getting up and

30:58

saying you can be a billionaire but it

31:01

wasn’t that what she was saying in fact

31:03

was that it all comes down to our values

31:04

and the choices that we make are based

31:06

on those and what we’re prepared to do

31:08

you know some might say what we’re

31:09

prepared to sacrifice in return for the

31:11

gold so

31:12

an example that she described is anyone

31:15

is capable of becoming a millionaire so

31:18

to become a millionaire it takes a

31:20

certain mindset it takes learning

31:22

certain skills it takes certain

31:23

activities and behaviors and that sort

31:25

of thing so when it came down to it you

31:28

know you’ve got to make the choice do i

31:29

want to do these things so i can have

31:30

that end goal

31:31

some of those skills were absolutely no

31:33

interest to her as a person so

31:35

because they didn’t appeal to her sense

31:37

of what was important she didn’t become

31:38

a millionaire that’s just kind of the

31:40

bottom the bottom line of that i could

31:42

still be working for the government

31:44

right now as we sit here because before

31:46

i moved to darwin as you know i was in a

31:47

government job

31:48

yeah it was by those the standards of

31:50

those days it was pretty well paid even

31:52

now i think it would be pretty well paid

31:54

but i chose to leave it almost seven

31:56

years into the job for a job in

31:58

commercial radio i could have even

32:00

stayed in the government job for an

32:01

extra six months six months out of seven

32:04

years i could have stayed that extra

32:05

time and i could have cashed in pretty

32:06

write a long service but yep i decided

32:09

that taking the role on dharma was

32:10

actually going to have a much more

32:11

positive impact on my mental health at

32:13

the time so there’s a theme that runs

32:15

through my life even 12 years back it

32:17

was far more important for me to get out

32:19

32:20

that job that i was in than to hang

32:22

around for a bit of extra cash than

32:23

passing up a you know that opportunity

32:25

of a lifetime so when we think about

32:27

success i suppose the the real question

32:29

is how are we measuring success

32:32

because the measurement of success there

32:33

wasn’t the money it was the way that you

32:36

felt i think you know if i’d made all of

32:38

my choices throughout life based on

32:40

money i could potentially be quite

32:42

wealthy but geez i’d be a different

32:44

person

32:45

i’d have lots of properties i reckon and

32:48

um i’d be like the monopoly man you

32:50

would be like the monopoly man for a

32:52

start if i was making my choices based

32:54

on money i never would have done a

32:56

bachelor of arts when i left school

33:00

same that’s the first thing let’s say

33:02

let’s do science or medicine or law

33:05

straight up but oddly enough though you

33:07

know what though

33:08

just to step in there for a sec sorry

33:11

okay i that goes back to high school you

33:13

know because in high school i remember

33:15

being very heavily encouraged towards

33:17

the subjects that would get into the

33:19

courses at university that would lead to

33:21

the money at the younger age i was

33:22

actually making those decisions because

33:24

of money but then by the time i got a

33:26

month into my science degree and

33:27

realized that it actually wasn’t for me

33:29

it wasn’t for me i decided to do art

33:31

instead and that was a me choice yeah

33:33

that reminds me of when i was at school

33:35

i had a huge interest in you know

33:37

science and physics in particular you

33:39

know when it got to year 11 and 12 i did

33:42

want one of the subjects that i studied

33:43

to be physics couldn’t do it because i

33:45

had to make the choice between to study

33:48

physics i had to also study maths b and

33:50

math c and it took out three subjects

33:53

and i also really loved music and i

33:55

wanted to study music and i wanted to

33:57

study film and television and make

33:59

things and so there weren’t enough

34:01

glasses to choose from like if i had

34:03

enough hours in the day if i if i wanted

34:06

physics i had to do three classes to go

34:08

with that um and then i didn’t have room

34:10

for music and film and tv so i i chose

34:13

the arts path i chose that media path

34:15

instead science would have made me a lot

34:17

more money i suspect maybe maybe not we

34:20

know how that’s been defunded of recent

34:22

years

34:24

but i get your point you know like and i

34:25

would have i might probably have done

34:27

the opposite because i chose all of

34:28

those difficult subjects and didn’t

34:31

particularly enjoy them whereas i would

34:32

have loved to have done things like

34:34

music and history so kids

34:36

choose wisely follow your heart that’s

34:39

what uncle andy says today just on my

34:41

pedestal just a little on my pedestal

34:42

here um

34:45

and i’m bitching about the education

34:46

system in 1998 or 97 or whenever it was

34:50

you know all those art subjects that i

34:52

did i received at that stage the grading

34:55

system was a very high achievement high

34:57

achievement credit and satisfactory and

35:00

then failed that kind of stuff i got

35:02

very high achievements in everything so

35:04

that’s like your a plus plus stuff and i

35:07

know people who did take the science

35:08

path and study chemistry biology that

35:10

kind of stuff than the maths and they

35:12

literally failed their subjects and

35:14

their op was the same as mine so

35:18

the government and their

35:19

non-support of the arts because it’s

35:21

essential for critical thinking and the

35:23

expression of creativity and if we had

35:25

more people making more art then we’d

35:28

have less mental health issues we would

35:30

and would probably have quite a lot

35:32

fewer social issues as well that’s

35:33

louise’s pets

35:35

19 but the thing okay 1997 that happened

35:38

has it changed they’re still

35:41

over not funding the arts look what

35:43

happened in the pandemic completely yeah

35:46

i mean sporting gets all of the all of

35:48

the money like you get a lot of money

35:49

for sport and i once said to somebody

35:51

said you know i don’t want to speak to

35:52

too ill of sport and you know but and

35:54

she said well why not they get plenty of

35:56

money and it’s true it’s so true because

35:59

when you look at yeah people talk about

36:01

oh you know they fund the arts they fund

36:03

the opera and they fund the

36:05

whatever

36:06

they’re okay so they are a part of the

36:08

arts and they are also valid but what

36:10

we’re talking about is new ideas and

36:13

we’re talking about people being able to

36:14

create things in the context of the

36:16

current world so sure go off and fund

36:18

your chamber music which is lovely to

36:21

listen to i do like also yeah i do too i

36:24

also want society to move forward i

36:27

don’t want it to be stuck in 1953 i

36:30

don’t want things to be clawed back and

36:32

for laws to be repealed which easily

36:35

happens with a division of society that

36:37

happens in politics

36:38

all the while they’re pumping more and

36:40

more money into sports and they’re

36:42

anesthetizing the population this isn’t

36:44

to say that people who watch sports are

36:46

dumb no there’s a lot of good stuff that

36:48

comes from sports yeah yeah there is and

36:50

we speak to some sporting people through

36:52

this series so i’m not cheating on

36:54

sports at all but what i am saying is

36:56

that it’s a mighty big distraction and

36:58

one that doesn’t require people to think

37:00

too much beyond where’s the ball and

37:03

have you ever tried to fill in a grant

37:05

to get money to make something in

37:07

creative arts those things are a

37:09

nightmare and they’re designed to put

37:10

people off yeah talk about jumping

37:12

through hoops hey

37:15

i mean i think that last tube did

37:17

actually have a ring of fire around it

37:19

i’m not gonna

37:21

it did feel like i was jumping through

37:22

and getting scorched there’s my analogy

37:24

for this section

37:27

but look i think it you know just to

37:29

pull ourselves back yeah because with

37:30

this has become another of louisiana

37:33

the patriarchy rants yeah totally i

37:35

mean you know like so 12 months ago you

37:38

could have signed the next routine

37:39

contracting in the job and you could

37:40

have stayed in that job that wasn’t

37:42

bringing you any joy anymore just like i

37:43

could have stayed in that government job

37:45

back in 2008

37:47

we both made a choice for ourselves yeah

37:50

we could have made different choices for

37:51

ourselves we could have followed another

37:52

pathway yeah and look and sometimes we

37:54

feel like we’re making a mountain of

37:56

errors you know in pursuit of an income

37:58

as new business owners which is right

38:00

out of our comfort zone

38:02

and you know derrick mcmahon has helped

38:04

us to really kind of readjust our

38:07

thinking or reframe our thinking around

38:09

all of that

38:10

human durability is the ability to go

38:12

beyond resilience to sustaining optimal

38:15

performance a baseline model for this is

38:18

i have a continuum that starts with

38:21

fragility has resilience in the middle

38:23

and durability on the other end

38:25

fragility i describe

38:27

as when we are brand new at doing

38:29

something we do it for the first time

38:31

we’re very young at it we’re fragile

38:33

because we’re

38:34

we’re new we’re inexperienced we make

38:36

mistakes sometimes we break things

38:39

and if you ever have somebody starting

38:40

new with you or you have a child working

38:42

with you we kind of understand it’s okay

38:44

for them to make a mistake but we’re not

38:46

as generous to ourselves about the

38:48

mistakes we make but these people are

38:50

fragile now with good coaching mentoring

38:52

guidance which we all need we are able

38:54

to take people

38:56

and we’re able to develop ourselves from

38:57

being fragile new beginners to resilient

39:00

performance now when we move from

39:03

fragile to resilience this is where we

39:06

go through the stages of learning how to

39:08

solve problems okay i’m new at this boss

39:11

how do i fix this problem boss what do i

39:13

do with this partner what do i do with

39:15

this you know whoever it might be we’re

39:17

getting that guidance and we learn how

39:19

to solve problems and that’s what

39:20

resilience is resilience is the ability

39:23

to bounce back if something happens i

39:25

know how to fix it i know how to bounce

39:27

back and we get really comfortable with

39:28

ourselves where we go it doesn’t matter

39:30

what’s going on if anything goes wrong

39:33

come and talk to me i know how to fix

39:34

things um i’m resilient and and it’s a

39:37

very powerful place to be and it’s

39:39

important to have resilience in our

39:41

personal stores but resilient isn’t

39:43

where we really want to be because

39:46

resilient is always bouncing back always

39:47

having to fix problems it’s waiting for

39:50

things to happen so that you can bounce

39:52

back now if you remember there was a

39:54

explosion in the port of lebanon three

39:57

thousand kilograms of chemicals exploded

39:59

and destroyed many of the houses and

40:02

killed many people the lebanese uh

40:03

government and the the media were saying

40:05

the lebanese people they are resilient

40:07

they’ll be able to bounce back they’ll

40:09

get over this we’ll be able to rebuild

40:11

we will be fine there was one lady that

40:13

was interviewed

40:14

and she said i’m tired of being

40:17

resilient i’ve been resilient all my

40:18

life i’ve been through the wars i’ve

40:20

been through and now i’m going to have

40:22

to be resilient i don’t want to be

40:23

resilient anymore i just want to be able

40:26

to enjoy my life and that i think is

40:28

where we want to be and that’s what i

40:30

describe as durability durability is

40:32

where we know that our performance is

40:34

100 reliable everything we do we know is

40:38

going to go well everything that happens

40:40

it’s predictable it’s we know exactly if

40:44

this happens i’ll be able to see the

40:46

signs i’ll be able to fix it before it

40:47

goes wrong it’s where we’re really

40:49

comfortable and if i

40:50

make this analogy about these podcasts

40:53

when you first started running podcasts

40:55

your minds would have been going a

40:57

thousand miles an hour going oh my gosh

41:00

this is our first one i hope it all goes

41:01

wrong now that you’re into it i mean

41:04

talking to you guys this morning it

41:05

sounds as if you don’t even bother

41:07

talking about the setup oh have we done

41:08

this of course i’ve done this you’ve got

41:10

it all you’re in a place now where you

41:12

come and do these podcasts and just go

41:15

excellent i know this is going to be

41:16

fine we’ve done this so often we know

41:18

exactly what’s going to happen we know

41:20

how to manage it everything goes really

41:22

well and i call that our comfort zone

41:24

our durability we’re 100 reliable this

41:27

is our comfort zone and it’s important

41:29

to know where your comfort zone is and

41:31

get into your comfort zone and enjoy

41:33

your comfort zone

41:35

because once we start enjoying our

41:36

comfort zone then we’ll start looking

41:38

around and going i’m really comfortable

41:40

i’m not challenged i want a new

41:42

challenge and that’s when we’ll take a

41:44

leap from there and we will take on a

41:46

new challenge one of the important

41:47

things about knowing where your comfort

41:49

zone is is that if you take a leap of

41:51

faith and you take on a challenge and

41:53

you crash and burn

41:54

many people burn back down to their

41:57

basics

41:58

and we all know the term if things start

42:00

going wrong let’s go back to basics

42:02

well basics is the day that you were

42:04

fragile the day you started in this your

42:07

place your comfort zone you’re 100

42:09

reliably reliable if you crash and burn

42:12

and you come back to your comfort zone

42:14

that’s when you start getting your

42:15

confidence back

42:17

so back to elevating experts oh yeah

42:20

it’s a good walk

42:22

it’s been it’s been a long walk um i

42:24

would say

42:26

gently it was a flop

42:28

yeah it’s it’s still up there the

42:30

content is great there were listeners

42:32

there were people who reached out to us

42:34

so i think there are people that we were

42:36

able to interact with based on that

42:38

series that have become a part of our

42:40

journey but

42:41

that series itself didn’t net us any

42:44

clients specifically yeah it didn’t hit

42:46

our values we were we were making

42:48

something in vain to try and get a

42:51

result where

42:52

we didn’t consider packing it in though

42:54

42:55

we wanted to press on because our

42:57

initial idea when we started out before

42:59

i even said let’s make a business

43:02

um it was reframe it was reframe of mind

43:04

the podcast you know this is the idea

43:06

that started the bull rolling in the

43:07

first place and you know what elevating

43:08

experts was it was once we started our

43:12

business it was us not believing in our

43:14

own ability to put our own ideas like

43:17

reframe of mind out there and have it be

43:20

successful and we thought we needed a

43:22

backup to generate income in a way that

43:25

was maybe more of that traditional model

43:27

i think we weren’t emotionally invested

43:29

in it because it was just more of what

43:32

we were already living what we lived

43:35

before it was another version of what

43:36

we’d already done yeah

43:39

to be honest you know like

43:41

when we when we take except there was

43:43

nobody um so we took a good hard look at

43:45

ourselves as

43:47

one of your relatives told you to do

43:50

before we started the business in an

43:52

angry kind of way

43:53

yeah so elevating story coming up

43:58

yeah elevating experts was something we

43:59

made to try and make the money we were

44:01

basing our actions on what we felt like

44:03

we had to do to fit other people’s

44:05

expectations and some of those

44:07

expectations from other people from

44:09

society that we picked up and were

44:11

living as our beliefs and you know it’s

44:13

this program reframe of mind that is our

44:15

passion and

44:17

there was a sense that you know we feel

44:18

that elevating experts was the money

44:20

maker like you’ve said

44:22

recently for our passion project but it

44:24

was the passion project that we intended

44:26

to make work from the start this was the

44:28

program that fully aligns with our

44:29

values and always felt good to work on

44:32

compared to

44:33

days of social media content

44:36

and scheduling it up for our golden

44:38

goose that wasn’t laying any eggs and it

44:40

all just started to feel

44:42

like that old workday grind

44:46

yuck but thinking back to derek’s story

44:48

and the theory around that continuum

44:51

from fragility to durability at that

44:53

time with elevating experts we realized

44:55

that we actually weren’t in a place of

44:57

fragility we weren’t ready to pack in

44:59

the business you know we just needed to

45:01

change direction we were in a place

45:03

where we could

45:05

reassess and just try a different

45:07

approach

45:08

get back into that comfort zone for us

45:11

create that content which is where our

45:13

power comes from then

45:15

become durable and and try other things

45:18

that’s the business though personally

45:21

some things were a little fragile

45:23

some things were a bit fragile yeah

45:28

um okay so for anyone who hasn’t caught

45:30

up yet my journey with this mental

45:32

health podcast is after my dad died i

45:35

say in fairly glossy terms the family

45:38

dynamics changed and

45:40

was this in the 30 second recap would we

45:42

need an

45:43

amendment to the 30 second recap i don’t

45:46

know maybe we need to recap for the

45:47

recap at this stage

45:50

wasn’t fragile when it came to the

45:51

elevating experts flopping was

45:54

definitely fragile when i received

45:56

something in the mail from a relative

45:59

and the relative related to this one who

46:01

had told me you know in no uncertain

46:03

terms to to back off to go away that you

46:06

know if i caused the trouble

46:08

what trouble was that going to

46:09

cause anyway if i caused trouble they

46:11

would tell me exactly what my now

46:13

deceased parents grandmother really

46:15

thought of me and my lifestyle don’t use

46:18

our kids as pawns don’t even think of

46:20

that or all that kind of stuff that

46:23

really you hear on today tonight

46:25

or a current affair you know it’s one of

46:27

those i was thinking jerry springer

46:29

actually well now jerry springer would

46:30

be like the episode where i’m sitting on

46:32

stage and joey says we’ve got a surprise

46:35

guest for you

46:36

and they come out with their cutlery

46:39

well cutlery

46:41

i mean okay so context context of

46:44

cutlery

46:45

46:46

because no one yet knows why we’ve been

46:48

calling this person cutlery woman for

46:49

the better part of a year that’s her

46:51

nickname okay so so here’s he’s my story

46:55

of shame and here’s my story of um

46:57

anxiety around the death of my father

47:00

and you’d think that it would be bad

47:01

enough that my father died but when my

47:03

father died he was in sydney where i

47:05

grew up i was in adelaide

47:07

i was there when he passed away and i’m

47:10

very grateful to have been with him in

47:11

that moment

47:13

but also the pandemic was just hitting

47:17

and all of those rules around funerals

47:19

we couldn’t have you know x amount of

47:21

people and all that kind of stuff that

47:22

was going on with funerals my partner

47:24

couldn’t come into state to support me

47:27

through the funeral and through you know

47:28

that time of initial initial grief and

47:30

loss

47:31

so you know you can imagine i wasn’t

47:33

necessarily in the best of business

47:38

so my shame around this is that as his

47:41

son i had to leave other family members

47:44

47:45

settle the estate to tidy up the house

47:48

do all that kind of stuff related to

47:49

preparing it for sales so i felt really

47:52

bad about that you know

47:54

i can’t change the fact that all of

47:55

those circumstances contributed to to

47:58

how how it was

48:00

anyhow not long after i’d left you know

48:02

a relative pops on and basically says on

48:05

social media what a great job the other

48:07

relatives are doing ah and cleaning up

48:10

the house passive aggressive passive

48:12

aggressive question comes in you know i

48:14

don’t deny they were doing a great job

48:15

but it was literally a matter of

48:17

probably not even a week after i’d left

48:20

so you know i took an action to just cut

48:23

them off on social media because we

48:25

never interacted on social media anyway

48:27

so there was really nothing to be had

48:29

there i guess to shortcut the story is

48:32

that i think the flash point was really

48:34

when you know they found out that they’d

48:36

been unfriended even though we never

48:38

communicated on social media

48:41

then the thing came in about you know

48:43

you’re this you’re that and all that

48:45

kind of stuff so

48:46

anyway it wasn’t a very nice time

48:50

pretty triggering for me to think about

48:52

it much less receive a lovely package in

48:54

the mail which consisted of a baby fork

48:57

and a baby spoon saying andrew i believe

49:00

these are yours

49:01

so and you know then the letter went on

49:03

to you know basically saying i don’t

49:05

know what i’ve done and can’t believe

49:08

that you’re doing this and all that kind

49:10

of stuff so

49:11

quite guilt trippy you know in my

49:14

opinion

49:15

it is you know weaponized love saying

49:18

well you know look we’re being very good

49:19

to you how come you’re treating us like

49:21

this but there’s a whole history

49:24

of family patterns which i keep alluding

49:26

to which you know will unfold

49:28

during the series and not to actually

49:30

condemn anybody who is actually being a

49:32

part of that because you know what i’m

49:34

going to put my hand up and say i’m not

49:36

above reproach myself

49:38

i did exactly the same sorts of things

49:40

that i’m talking about with these

49:41

patterns of behavior and that’s why i’m

49:43

very intent on not actually identifying

49:45

anybody because you know i get a sense

49:47

that it’s not just my family this

49:49

happens in i get a sense that it happens

49:51

in friendship circles in other families

49:54

in workplaces

49:55

i think this is a pattern of behaviors

49:58

that’s endemic in our society i don’t

50:00

even know whether it’s a

50:03

an australian cultural thing or if it’s

50:05

i don’t know you know what i mean like i

50:07

can think for days about that but what

50:09

it comes back to is that at that time

50:11

when i received that letter i was really

50:13

triggered you remember you were there

50:15

yeah you were i are you that was one of

50:17

the most upset days i’ve seen you on the

50:19

on the team’s calls you i could tell you

50:22

you got it and you read it and you tried

50:23

to play it off like it didn’t matter and

50:26

then

50:27

i could just it mattered

50:29

you’re like no no let’s let’s let’s get

50:31

back to it let’s get back to this thing

50:32

that we’re doing and i could just

50:34

i could see it kept was eating away at

50:38

your mind and then we had to talk about

50:41

it and then we had a happy monday you

50:43

know then we had maybe that was the

50:44

first therapy monday maybe that was the

50:46

turning point where we decided to put um

50:48

our mental health at the heart of the

50:49

business because if we if we were in any

50:52

other job that we had had previously if

50:55

something like that had happened and you

50:57

know we had these self-imposed deadlines

50:58

we were trying to meet to get things

51:00

happening we would have just gone i’ll

51:02

just deal with that later it doesn’t it

51:04

doesn’t matter it doesn’t affect it’s a

51:06

personal thing deal with that yourself

51:08

another time yeah yeah absolutely that

51:10

doesn’t work it doesn’t work you can’t

51:13

just get on with it because it’s here

51:15

and now and it’s actually affecting you

51:16

here and now you’ve got to be able to

51:18

give yourself permission to sit with it

51:21

you’ve got to be able to give yourself

51:23

permission to

51:25

to feel those emotions you’re feeling

51:27

because you know the more i tried to

51:28

push that back as you saw the more they

51:31

were going ah

51:32

and and i got wobbly and i cried and i

51:35

did all sorts of things and you know

51:37

should they actually listen to this

51:38

episode

51:39

they won’t um they won’t we we can block

51:42

them from that as well and then they’ll

51:44

have to send another they’ll have to

51:45

send us a cassette

51:47

in the mail that’s right cassettes on a

51:52

reel-to-reel tape

51:54

but you know like i don’t know like

51:57

honestly if they did listen to this i

51:59

they need to know that i’m not affected

52:00

by it anymore that kind of stuff i’ve

52:03

actually become durable is what i’m

52:05

saying because the conversation with

52:06

derrick although instrumental in me

52:08

thinking okay i need to actually find a

52:10

different way to relate to this still

52:12

because you know i thought that i’d

52:14

reframed it i thought that i’d actually

52:16

gone okay cut that off on we go

52:19

but yet it kept coming back it kept

52:22

coming back to haunt me at three o’clock

52:23

in the morning sometimes or even just

52:25

when i woke up naturally every morning

52:26

be like that would be what was leading

52:28

rent-free in my mind so these things we

52:31

do need to keep persisting with and we

52:33

need to actually sit with these emotions

52:35

because i’m not fragile now when it

52:37

comes to that i’m speaking about this

52:38

and having a bit of a laugh about

52:40

cutlery women you know i i can i i’ve

52:43

got the distance from it but distance

52:45

isn’t enough i’ve basically been able to

52:48

allow myself the opportunity to process

52:50

the emotions around that and what they

52:52

mean and figure out was i reasonable

52:54

here was i unreasonable there and you

52:56

know i’ve done my own work there so you

52:59

were able to take a good hard look at

53:00

yourself

53:01

i took a good hard look at myself which

53:03

was the which was the command at the

53:06

time in the fragile state i was in i

53:08

retorted something and said i suggest

53:10

you do the same you know so that’s kind

53:11

of the tit-for-tat kind of

53:14

arguey kind of

53:15

jerry springer type interactions that

53:19

i don’t want that in my life i

53:21

don’t care whether you’re you know

53:23

related by blood i don’t care if you are

53:25

a million dollar client i am not going

53:27

to accept that behavior so now we’ve

53:30

discussed that pivotal moment from

53:32

our journey together and your journey in

53:34

the last 12 months

53:36

are you feeling fred

53:39

53:42

not even fragile not even the long film

53:44

version not the nickname no not even

53:47

anxiety about talking about it in the

53:49

podcast anymore because

53:51

you know um

53:53

you know like i’ve mentioned like that

53:54

the points in between that initial

53:57

letter and now has had other things in

53:58

between and i was building up some

54:00

resilience it’s almost like i was being

54:02

trained

54:04

you know here’s another one how do you

54:05

feel now oh actually i feel a bit better

54:07

it didn’t take me as long to bounce back

54:08

and i keep bouncing back but now i’m at

54:10

that point of durability so yeah

54:13

something’s presented to me

54:15

you know it might only be a scary of

54:17

time before i bounce back there’s that

54:19

you know i’m at the strong end of

54:20

resilience with that now and i’m feeling

54:23

durable excellent so

54:25

yeah you know like i’ve kind of reached

54:26

a comfort zone within my place in that

54:29

relationship and that i know that i’m

54:31

making the best choices for me derek

54:33

would be very happy

54:35

he would be he would be next to eric he

54:36

would be very happy with that um he did

54:39

encourage us last episode to embrace our

54:41

comfort zone

54:43

if you crash and burn and you come back

54:45

to your comfort zone that’s when you

54:47

start getting your confidence back but

54:48

not enough people are comfortable with

54:51

their comfort zone that’s a very bad

54:52

terminology um

54:54

that they’re not

54:56

aware enough of coming back to their

54:58

comfort zone is where they get their

54:59

power from because when you’re back in

55:01

that comfort zone everything’s going

55:02

right um you’re starting to get your

55:03

confidence back again oh yes i know i

55:05

can do this this is what i’ve got and so

55:08

when we start out something brand new as

55:10

fragile we then move to resilience we

55:13

actually want to move to

55:15

that 100 reliable when we take that leap

55:18

and we take on a new challenge we’ve

55:20

also got to understand that we will

55:21

slide back along that continuum because

55:24

when we take a new leap there’s new

55:26

learnings there’s new things to problem

55:28

solve so we will slide back from being

55:30

100 reliable

55:32

back to

55:33

oh my gosh i’m just resilient now and if

55:35

it’s a really big challenge you make and

55:37

you crash and burn you may go back to

55:38

fragile but it’s only in that one area

55:40

of your life the rest of your life is

55:42

still good lots of people go oh my gosh

55:45

i’ve embarrassed myself i’m an idiot my

55:47

life is destroyed people will think i’m

55:49

useless no it’s one area that you’ve

55:51

made a mistake in you are still a good

55:53

husband or wife you are still a good

55:54

parent you’re still a good brother

55:56

sister you’re operating you’re you’re

55:58

able to manage that business well it may

56:00

be your finances you stuffed up in it’s

56:02

not a reflection on your whole life and

56:04

again that’s a a nuance that a lot of

56:06

people go oh that makes sense

56:09

so changing direction isn’t always easy

56:11

and it doesn’t mean having to throw out

56:13

everything that you’ve done sometimes a

56:15

change of thinking or reframing of the

56:18

situation is what’s needed so this in

56:20

the journey for us is where we met

56:22

motivational speaker chris helder now we

56:24

recorded this at the beginning of the

56:26

covert crisis he had literally lost all

56:29

of his scheduled speaking engagements

56:31

overnight

56:32

in three days i had like 80

56:34

presentations that just disappeared off

56:36

my schedule it was insane

56:39

chris helder based in sydney is a

56:41

motivational speaker whose focus is on

56:44

business communication you know how you

56:45

go to those seminars and they bring in a

56:47

keynote speaker and he gears you up and

56:49

gets you ready to face the world that’s

56:51

yeah that’s what chris helder does

56:53

boom

56:54

that’s his catchphrase boom

56:56

um yeah i think he probably has helped a

56:59

lot of people worldwide to communicate

57:01

with their clients and their customers

57:02

and their colleagues and their teams by

57:04

you know teaching them some of his

57:06

philosophies yeah i mean he’s been doing

57:08

this for you know almost 20 years now

57:10

and he’s had over two and a half

57:11

thousand presentations worldwide so he’s

57:14

not new at the game so when we spoke to

57:16

him we wanted to chat about his

57:17

philosophy for life that he’s written a

57:18

book around um useful belief which is

57:21

something that he believes can be used

57:23

for anyone dealing with adversity and

57:26

has the potential to open up

57:27

possibilities and unlock opportunities

57:29

for us

57:30

my idea of reframe is

57:33

this idea of useful belief and i suppose

57:35

as a speaker have gotten to be known for

57:37

useful belief and what’s the difference

57:39

between that and as you say toxic

57:41

positivity the studies have to really

57:43

show that positive thinking you know is

57:45

a band-aid and it doesn’t work in fact

57:47

the studies show when you lay in bed in

57:48

the morning and try to be positive that

57:50

you uh you’re like come on chris just be

57:53

positive today you can do it by 10

57:54

o’clock when something bad happens or

57:56

something you know devastating happens

57:58

that it’s very easy all of a sudden that

58:00

studies show you actually feel worse

58:01

about yourself than when you started so

58:02

you you know and you’re like gosh i

58:04

can’t even do positive well and i tried

58:06

to do positive and really positive

58:08

thinking and negative thinking or

58:09

emotive thinking and my idea of useful

58:12

belief and what really separates it is

58:15

is it’s not emotive thinking it’s

58:16

practical thinking it’s what’s the most

58:18

useful thing for me to believe in this

58:21

situation what’s the most useful action

58:23

for me to take in this situation based

58:26

on the reality that i’m facing

58:28

so how do you get to finding that useful

58:31

belief like say that example of waking

58:32

up in the morning how when you’re waking

58:35

up what are you reaching for i would say

58:37

louise the simplest way to look at it is

58:39

this if it’s raining outside it’s

58:41

raining outside and you walk outside and

58:43

you now are dealing with a reality of

58:45

rain

58:46

so you know we now have a choice to go

58:49

i’m going to try to be positive about

58:50

the fact that the traffic’s going to be

58:51

worse and i remember trying to be

58:53

positive or or i’m going to be negative

58:55

which is emotive thinking the but the

58:57

simplest thing is it’s it’s you can’t

58:59

say it’s not raining that’s called

59:00

denial we all have bad things that

59:02

happen to us and we all have realities

59:04

of our life and

59:05

uh well jesus we certainly have seen a

59:07

lot of that in the last 12 months you

59:08

can’t deny that it is raining instead

59:11

you say you know what it is raining

59:13

what’s my most useful belief about the

59:15

next 10 minutes

59:16

you go i love walking in the rain boom

59:19

and all of a sudden it shifts your brain

59:21

and opens you up and you know it’s

59:23

useful thought you know useful action

59:25

i’m going to i’m going to put different

59:26

pair of shoes on useful belief you know

59:29

i love playing football in the rain if

59:31

you’re going to have to play football in

59:32

the rain and and it is just as a very

59:35

simple shift of

59:37

of mindset that is just about

59:39

practicality

59:41

so is it as simple as just simply

59:43

changing what you’re telling yourself or

59:45

is there a process that goes behind that

59:46

to land in that position the process

59:49

behind it would be i mean i suppose the

59:50

understanding that we have

59:52

i mean every one of us has a filter in

59:54

our brain and without going too deep

59:56

into it it’s called the reticular

59:58

activating system and and the reticular

60:00

activating system that filter that we

60:01

all have

60:03

shows you what you see so

60:05

60:06

my 18 year old son is now 20 but when he

60:09

was 18 i looked to buy him a car and

60:12

a used car and somebody told me hey

60:14

check out a subaru xv

60:16

now i’d never seen a subaru xb before in

60:18

my life i didn’t even know which one was

60:20

but guess what as soon as somebody

60:22

pointed out go get him like a 2013

60:24

subaru xv

60:25

do you know what’s on the road

60:26

everywhere boom subaru xv stay on

60:30

everywhere and that so that’s the filter

60:32

that’s your particular activate system

60:34

and and it’s no different if we if we

60:36

believe these are tough times then your

60:38

brain obviously goes out there and sees

60:40

the negativity it sees the frustration

60:42

it sees the angst

60:44

one of the sayings i suppose i’ve gotten

60:46

to you know

60:47

to be known for is you know this is the

60:49

best time in the history of the world to

60:51

dot dot dot whatever your situation is

60:54

and i know that sounds maybe to a lot of

60:56

people like what a tough sell in this

60:58

you know global pandemic time but this

61:00

is the best time in the history of the

61:01

world to have a global pandemic and as

61:03

soon as you believe that i mean it is

61:05

right i mean imagine if we had a global

61:06

pandemic 20 years ago what would you be

61:08

doing no no netflix no

61:10

phones what it what like you what would

61:12

what would you be no zoom meetings like

61:14

what would you be doing you’d be sitting

61:16

around 23 hours a day locked into your

61:18

apartment with your nokia block playing

61:20

snake right i mean it would have been

61:23

but we would have got very good at not

61:24

catching the tail

61:26

exactly right the bottom line is people

61:29

are sick and tired of being told to be

61:30

positive and because bad things do

61:33

happen bad things have happened bad

61:35

things have happened to all of us and

61:37

when people come up to you and just say

61:38

hey come on be positive about it you

61:40

really want to just punch them in the

61:42

mouth right that’s not that’s not the

61:43

answer

61:44

it’s useful practicality

61:47

pragmatism thinking about controlling

61:49

your brain

61:50

so it’s quite a leap to for someone you

61:53

know who might be listening to think

61:55

okay well

61:56

my relationship has just broken up and

61:58

you know my partner has left me with

62:00

with the kids and i no longer have

62:02

anywhere to live to

62:04

this is the best time in the world to be

62:05

doing this how do you get from point a

62:08

to point b so that that actually

62:10

effectively reframes the the experience

62:13

there’s no rules on it i think you know

62:15

it was funny i was on the today show

62:16

just recently and somebody said to me

62:18

you know they asked me the question they

62:19

said well chris you know how how long

62:21

does it take to reprogram your brain and

62:23

i think even in that question andy we’re

62:25

over complicating it it’s it’s it’s

62:28

simply

62:29

you know what what’s the most useful

62:30

thing that i can do today well my most

62:33

useful thing today might be to literally

62:35

get out of bed make myself breakfast and

62:36

go back to bed right i mean it doesn’t

62:39

62:40

i’m not there’s there’s no rules on it

62:42

it’s your life and i think that’s the

62:44

big

62:45

i think that’s the big thing it’s it’s

62:47

it’s not this i just have to be positive

62:50

and go out there and you know

62:52

transform myself into some superpower

62:55

you know that is you know the reality is

62:57

that’s not most people and most people

62:59

actually don’t need to be transformed

63:01

most people actually just need an edge

63:03

most people just need a conscious

63:06

thought in their day to go okay hang on

63:09

what’s my most useful response to what

63:10

my boss just said to me what’s my most

63:12

useful situation

63:16

i’m gonna do a little circuit breaker

63:17

here and say thanks for listening to us

63:19

if you love the show let us know hit the

63:21

subscribe button on your podcast app and

63:23

show us those five-star ratings remember

63:25

to tell your friends about us and check

63:27

our patreon page for access to even more

63:29

content like extended interviews at

63:32

patreon.com forward slash reframe of

63:34

mind the more people we get talking

63:36

about mental health the more supported

63:38

we’ll all be

63:41

okay so that’s chris hilde and if you’ve

63:43

listened to episode 11. no judgment if

63:46

you haven’t i mean you’re familiar with

63:47

annie

63:48

we just told you that we needed

63:50

listeners so like i mean we do come on

63:52

come on listen and hit follow um but if

63:55

you’ve listened to episode 11 you’d be

63:57

familiar with annie harvey who is our

63:58

mindfulness expert

64:00

stopping the cycle of stress

64:02

taking care is the t

64:04

which is around your relationships and

64:07

depleting activities and that kind of

64:08

thing inhale is your mindfulness the

64:11

first l is called listen so

64:15

i talk about listening to your values

64:17

and your strengths your character

64:19

strengths

64:20

so even though you might have certain

64:22

things going in your life can you align

64:24

your goals in your daily life with your

64:26

what’s important to you what what you

64:28

want to show up for in life and i didn’t

64:30

i didn’t know what my values were at the

64:32

age of 50. someone asked me on a

64:33

training course and i couldn’t answer

64:35

the question so i went down that kind of

64:37

rabbit hole studying that and then the

64:39

last part is laughter

64:41

so annie’s book the still effect

64:43

available now just check the link in the

64:46

show notes oh you do that wanky radio

64:48

voice

64:49

a lot of experience being wanky radio

64:51

announcer i’ve seen a lot of them around

64:53

that i can model my behavior off i’m

64:55

sure you have

64:57

um annie harvey she chatted to us about

64:59

the prospect of reframing situations

65:01

that are out of our direct control

65:03

i wonder if we can reframe any kind of

65:06

inconvenience of being with other people

65:08

in cars and situations that are out of

65:10

our control maybe getting caught in a

65:12

commute or something like that yeah so

65:14

that’s um so i i wrote a book about this

65:16

because when i did my tedx talk people

65:18

said oh that’s the still effects really

65:20

great is there a book about it and i was

65:22

in my 50th year saying yes to everything

65:25

so i wanted to do 50 new things but i

65:27

didn’t have a bucket list so i just said

65:28

yes to everything so i said yes there’s

65:30

a book

65:31

and then it was suddenly how am i going

65:32

to write this book i can’t write a book

65:34

about just 10 minutes or something i’ve

65:36

just talked about so i was you know

65:38

discovered that a lot of my friends

65:40

didn’t want to learn the formal practice

65:42

of meditation but they wanted to learn

65:44

how to be calmer that’s originally how

65:46

they so i wrote this book for 30 things

65:49

that you can do in your day without

65:51

meditating so one of them going back to

65:52

the commuting is what to do at a red

65:55

traffic light so you know we might be

65:57

late for work and we might be situation

65:59

where we can’t control when that light

66:01

changes or how many cars go through at

66:03

the light change so can you sit

66:06

and just really

66:07

i guess go to your senses so notice

66:10

yourself sitting in the car notice your

66:11

steering wheel look around spot some

66:13

colors

66:14

maybe notice the colors of the traffic

66:16

lights and then it changes and you move

66:18

on so it’s a matter of

66:20

seconds or minutes and there are little

66:22

little check-in moments i guess in the

66:24

day that people can use

66:26

and chris helder was forced into a

66:28

position of having to test his own

66:29

theory because when covert 19 entered

66:32

our consciousness he needed to pivot his

66:34

business requiring a reframe in his

66:36

approach

66:38

so the last 12 months or so with covert

66:41

66:42

i mean you speak about having 200 odd

66:45

gigs in a year they all i imagine dried

66:48

up overnight

66:49

and if your main job is going out and

66:51

being able to connect with people in

66:53

person that also dried up overnight

66:57

for a tough year to be a motivational

66:59

speaker louise it’s the best time in the

67:01

world to be a motivational speaker

67:03

that’s what i’m talking about and we can

67:05

let’s you finish yourself the question

67:07

no yeah so i i was going with so

67:11

you

67:12

must have reframed that because you

67:15

would have found that it is the best

67:16

time in the world to be a motivational

67:18

speaker so

67:19

how did you take that situation and you

67:22

know what’s the steps of working through

67:24

that for you to reframe that to

67:26

this is going to work out for me

67:29

i’m really glad you asked that question

67:30

because i think it leads us to that next

67:33

piece that is just so important and that

67:35

is we are human and

67:38

you know i had actually i did a

67:39

presentation in adelaide and i literally

67:41

i remember walking into the qantas club

67:44

in adelaide and i looked up and and the

67:45

national basketball association had

67:48

canceled their season it was march 13

67:50

2020.

67:51

anyway that was just the moment i knew

67:52

because i think before that we were like

67:54

oh it might be sars it might be you know

67:56

we’re starting to give each other a

67:57

little elbow here and there but but but

67:59

that was it and i knew and and i think

68:01

it was something like

68:02

in three days i had like 80

68:04

presentations that just disappeared off

68:06

my schedule it was insane

68:09

and

68:10

the reason i think it’s such a great

68:11

question you asked me is i think first

68:13

of all let’s let’s not

68:14

not allow ourselves to be human too you

68:16

know um we have to allow ourselves to be

68:18

human i you know i felt terrible about

68:20

that i felt sad about that i felt sad

68:22

about what i was watching happen and i

68:24

mean i do joke no one wants a sad

68:26

motivational speaker i mean and uh and

68:28

and you know we’re allowed to feel and

68:31

then come up with a useful belief as

68:33

part of a process and i know you know

68:35

and he asked me about process i mean we

68:37

are allowed just to go hang on what just

68:39

happened is devastating and as i said

68:42

before bad things happen to good people

68:43

and forget my situation obviously what

68:46

what happened across the world has been

68:48

devastating to so many but

68:51

i did have a couple of weeks that i

68:52

really didn’t know what to do and i was

68:54

68:55

feeling sad about it and i do joke that

68:57

i’d people would come up to me and go

68:59

well chris why don’t you go read your

69:01

own book are you feeling sad are you why

69:04

don’t you go give yourself a

69:05

motivational talk right and um you know

69:08

that is it is um i think there was a lot

69:10

is the best time in the history of the

69:11

world to be a motivational speaker

69:13

because

69:14

i mean i think it forced me to really

69:15

shift as well and and obviously we

69:18

figured out how to do virtual and you

69:20

know i did 81 virtual presentations and

69:23

you know i think for the year and i you

69:25

know i had one day i talked to the

69:26

national hockey league in canada in the

69:28

morning and i came back in the afternoon

69:30

and did a conference in beijing for

69:32

prudential and i literally finished up

69:34

that afternoon talking to six real

69:36

estate agents in western sydney i think

69:38

they’d been drinking

69:39

you know and i had this incredible day

69:41

where i like went from toronto to

69:42

beijing to western sydney and you know

69:45

just it was it was actually interesting

69:47

i had someone say to me you know through

69:50

this time

69:51

chris you’re going to be able to help

69:53

people

69:54

and it may not be as much fun for you

69:57

but you’re going to be able to help more

69:59

people probably than ever before but who

70:02

are in real pain

70:04

it’s not like just doing a conference on

70:05

the gold coast where people are in the

70:07

middle of a party right where they’re

70:08

like hey we’re going golfing after this

70:10

or you know yeah we get you know we’ve

70:13

got a masquerade party after this at

70:15

this conference you know these are a lot

70:17

of times people that are sitting in

70:18

their apartments who are lonely and sad

70:20

and and they are feeling those negative

70:23

things and they’re not in a useful frame

70:25

and you know i think to really say yeah

70:28

andy this is the best time in the

70:30

history of the world to be a

70:31

motivational speaker

70:32

just purely because of the impact you

70:34

know the impact and the feedback and the

70:36

emails and the you know did i enjoy it

70:39

as much you know

70:41

i mean you know i love the stage and i

70:43

love the live audience and i love the

70:45

energy you get back from a real

70:46

situation i love all those things they

70:48

just weren’t real right i mean it just

70:50

wasn’t possible so if it’s not possible

70:52

you put your best face on it what’s the

70:54

most useful belief about the situation

70:56

but having said that um

70:58

it has been so fun the last few weeks

71:00

getting back to you know some some

71:02

really great live stuff and and that

71:04

momentum is picking up and um and the

71:07

reframe was about

71:08

really helping people through that time

71:10

and and i think that’s even become a

71:13

stronger value for me

71:14

on the back of covet is it you know just

71:17

service to people i think with that’s

71:20

not just as a speaker i think every

71:22

person listening to this we come into

71:24

contact with human beings and

71:26

every day whether it’s dropping your kid

71:28

off at kindy let me ask you did you make

71:30

that kindy teacher’s day better or worse

71:32

you know when you went and filled the

71:34

car up with petrol at the kohl’s express

71:36

there’s a guy back there who works in a

71:38

box all day let me ask you did you make

71:40

his day better or worse there’s you know

71:42

when you came across a customer did you

71:44

make their day better or worse like you

71:46

know we all have the ability to serve

71:48

others and

71:50

and help them and and help them by

71:53

you know making their day better useful

71:55

belief this is the best time in the

71:56

history of the world to be alive

71:59

i think i’m about to blow your mind with

72:02

something here because

72:04

i’ve while you’ve been retelling this

72:06

story made some connections that i don’t

72:08

think you’ve thought about before and

72:10

this is going to be the one this is

72:11

going to be the first time that you’ve

72:12

you’ve heard this oh wow okay you’ve

72:15

heard it first with me come on um

72:17

that day that you received the letter

72:19

and the gallery the baby fork and the

72:21

baby spoon and i i could see how fragile

72:24

you were and how it kept playing on you

72:27

when i said no let’s because you did try

72:29

to play it off and say we won’t do we

72:32

it’s okay and of course that was my

72:34

thing that’s that’s what i have been

72:36

doing for all of my life and then i

72:39

which i have to not do the thing that

72:40

i’ve been doing all of my life which is

72:43

not actually wanting to find out how

72:45

someone is when i ask them because i’m

72:48

often felt like i don’t have that

72:49

capacity to if you i know that if you if

72:53

i ask someone and they give me an answer

72:55

that i is going to require more effort

72:57

um i don’t always think i’ve got the

72:59

capacity to to listen to that like

73:01

especially with some of the fragile

73:03

mental states i’ve been but in in this

73:05

thing i could see how much it was

73:07

affecting you and so i’ve put aside that

73:10

feeling for me of

73:12

if i ask him how he really is and i say

73:14

i don’t think you’re okay then he’s

73:16

gonna

73:17

tell me

73:18

most likely what it really is and

73:21

we’re both gonna have to look at these

73:22

things that are triggering to us um

73:26

and so i think i put that aside then and

73:30

called out your and said

73:32

let’s talk about it a few times i think

73:34

i had to reassure you that it was okay

73:36

to talk about it and i was kind of

73:37

reassuring me too because

73:39

you know why i didn’t really talk about

73:41

things like we’ve come a long way with

73:44

each other in the last year and it’s

73:45

like we’ve you know we were friends

73:47

before this and we talked about things

73:49

but not to the extent that we do now i

73:51

don’t actually think there’s really much

73:53

in the way of

73:54

any secrets or any subject that would be

73:56

too taboo to discuss and as you started

73:59

to talk about it the thing that shifted

74:02

the way you were feeling about it was

74:05

humor

74:06

when we started to make fun of it the

74:08

thing that struck me is

74:10

how

74:11

long was this person angry that like

74:14

they didn’t just send you an email how

74:16

angry was this person

74:18

74:19

she wrote a letter angrily found an

74:22

envelope angrily

74:24

got a stamp for it

74:26

angrily

74:28

walk to the post office

74:33

adam added some cutlery like how much

74:37

anger and resentment do you have to have

74:39

to bother with any of that over

74:43

being blocked on facebook

74:47

but when you started to laugh about it

74:49

like that demeanor that that changed for

74:51

you and i think

74:53

that here comes the mind-blowing

74:54

revelation when we’ve done re-frame of

74:58

mind

74:59

so far 13 episodes and some of the

75:02

feedback that we’ve been getting from

75:03

people a lot is we’re talking about

75:05

things that sometimes are really dark

75:07

and it’s funny yeah because if

75:10

we can’t laugh about these worst things

75:13

that have happened

75:14

then we’ll cry about them and i think

75:17

that laughter has that ability to just

75:20

defuse the laughter is definitely an

75:25

amazing release you know annie harvey

75:26

has talked to us about what a wonderful

75:30

defusing effect laughter can have you

75:32

know laughter therapy or laughter

75:34

sessions that she runs it’s literally no

75:36

one’s even telling the joke someone’s

75:38

just standing there going

75:45

and suddenly the laughter picks up yeah

75:46

yeah and that’s a release

75:48

so you know laughing and crying are both

75:50

amazing releases i’d much rather laugh

75:53

the day you go thank you for making me

75:54

laugh the day you got the cutlery here

75:56

we go here’s here’s the reframe of the

75:59

reframing episode the day you got the

76:01

cutlery and you were in that fragile

76:04

state

76:04

and

76:05

it hurt like a and you

76:08

chose to actually be vulnerable and

76:11

share how you were feeling with me and i

76:13

chose to be vulnerable and listen and

76:15

then we chose to diffuse that with humor

76:18

so that and i know it still bothered you

76:20

after that but so that it didn’t

76:22

paralyze you for that day we chose to

76:25

actively find the most useful thing that

76:28

we could do

76:29

and reframe that then so that you could

76:32

feel a little bit better so that we

76:34

could start the journey towards getting

76:36

the distance where you can talk about

76:38

that and heal about that and you know

76:41

derek talks about this continuum of

76:43

fragility through resilience through

76:45

durability

76:47

i don’t know whether there was a

76:49

particular point where i started to feel

76:51

like i was

76:52

durable with it you know because you

76:54

know there were other letters there were

76:56

other other pieces of cutlery you

76:59

haven’t got a whole set yet

77:01

i haven’t collected the set yet i mean

77:02

baby forks what the

77:05

you don’t have kids what are you gonna

77:06

do are you sitting there eating your

77:08

potatoes on a baby fork olives

77:11

they’re great for olives what are you

77:12

gonna do with a set of baby cutlery

77:16

well they are metal i suppose they’re

77:17

not plastic but anyway by the bye

77:19

um i i don’t know

77:21

what point i started to feel because you

77:23

know now clearly today here

77:25

i’m speaking about it quite fine i i’m

77:27

not triggered by it i had some hesitancy

77:30

earlier in making the series about

77:32

talking too much about my personal

77:34

circumstances because

77:36

we’re all private people we none of us

77:38

want to expose ourselves but i think you

77:40

know in telling my story as well people

77:42

have said to me that’s happening to me

77:44

or it’s happened to me and you know it’s

77:46

it’s good not to feel alone and it is

77:48

great not to feel alone and

77:50

you’re not alone

77:51

but sitting here today not being

77:54

triggered by that event is an example of

77:56

the durability in that continuum because

77:59

you know those other things that

78:00

happened in between that initial one

78:02

where i was very fragile and the other

78:04

interactions where you know i got a

78:07

little bit upset but then bounced back

78:08

pretty quickly that’s resilience

78:10

right now i don’t know like i’m not

78:12

asking for it but should another letter

78:14

arrive

78:16

should should a plate and a bowl arrive

78:18

to complete the set

78:20

she had to pay extra for postage to send

78:22

cutlery it’s not even a large

78:24

letter right like she it was

78:27

she was so angry she had to get what a

78:29

mailing satchel but you know what wasn’t

78:31

important enough to express posts

78:35

[Laughter]

78:37

but you know what durability is when the

78:39

christmas card arrived

78:42

the christmas card

78:43

well the christmas card because the

78:45

christmas card had elements of the same

78:47

patterns you know the elements was that

78:48

the one that had photos no that was

78:50

another one okay so i’m going to

78:52

paraphrase here and the card contained

78:54

something akin to don’t know why you’re

78:56

doing this i hope we can make the family

78:59

great again

79:01

margaret hath get it on a half a hat

79:03

yeah and you know child x

79:06

made this

79:08

for you

79:09

i suppose i mean it makes sense though

79:11

that if i’ve been warned not to use kids

79:13

as pawns i i guess if anyone’s going to

79:16

use kids as pawns it’s going to be the

79:18

people that

79:19

that brought them up i don’t know but

79:21

all of the kids are adults now they can

79:22

make their own choices and i sincerely

79:25

hope that the choices they make include

79:27

busting these patterns that have been

79:29

going on for generations in our family

79:31

i’m not blaming anyone you know these

79:33

are things that we often go about with

79:35

on autopilot so when you got to

79:36

christmas with that card did you realize

79:39

you were durable then yeah i think i did

79:41

because i looked at it and i read it and

79:43

i went huh

79:44

filed it away why did i file it away and

79:46

not throw it away like i did the initial

79:47

letter i’m keeping journals and maybe

79:49

i’ll publish a book one day i don’t know

79:51

it’s like the certificate of

79:52

authenticity for the cutlery though so

79:54

when we yeah when we make it big and we

79:56

can have like an auction somewhere you

79:58

could like a banksy piece you could buy

80:00

the original baby fork and spoon with

80:03

the christmas card attached limited

80:05

limited edition one of one may or may

80:07

not have been used by a child andy

80:09

doesn’t remember because that’s just the

80:11

thing though you’re right it probably

80:12

wasn’t even your fork i don’t think it

80:14

was because i’m sure i’ve had a

80:17

with people from my family in the past

80:19

they’ve gone oh yeah well you know mum

80:21

got these when x was a kid or whatever i

80:24

don’t think it was even my

80:25

cutlery

80:29

she’s on the way to the post office

80:31

angrily mailing

80:32

someone else’s cutlery

80:36

i mean you know as far as hobbies go

80:38

mailing random pieces of cutlery that

80:39

may or may not have ever been

80:42

owned by someone that’s a really good

80:44

thing that you’re in that state oh you

80:45

remember episode three understanding

80:47

depression and anxiety and we spoke

80:49

about yeah

80:51

so long ago now 2020 has been so long um

80:54

we spoke about some personally for me

80:56

some really dark stuff in there like you

80:59

know around kind of suicidal ideation

81:01

and ongoing battles with depression

81:03

um at the time something that we said

81:05

was we feel like we can talk about this

81:07

now because we got the distance from it

81:09

what you’re describing there with one

81:12

day you wake up i suppose and realize

81:14

that that thing that once was a trigger

81:16

is no longer a trigger that’s a similar

81:18

feeling for me in that situation you

81:20

know like for a long time after that i

81:23

was really afraid of slipping back into

81:27

this depression again because when

81:29

you’re on the way up and out of it you

81:30

haven’t got the distance from it you’re

81:32

afraid you’re going to slide back into

81:33

it i also want to add you know like as

81:35

you say like some distance has gone on

81:37

in between there i

81:39

say that it’s not distance alone that

81:41

has

81:42

i i believe contributed to that that

81:44

durable state because it’s linked to my

81:47

values it’s linked also to my self-worth

81:50

and my feeling of self-worth and

81:52

within all of that like in those in

81:54

those fragile days when i got upset when

81:56

i received that initial letter i was

81:58

still in a state of oh look you know mum

82:00

would be so upset that i’m not talking

82:02

to blah blah blah or blah blah blah or

82:04

you know all of this kind of stuff and

82:06

the shame and feeling of the shame that

82:08

you’ve spoke about that’s that’s huge

82:11

yeah

82:11

yeah

82:12

that is

82:13

a huge emotion that puts so much

82:15

pressure on us that is you attacking you

82:18

yeah completely

82:19

so so in between then and now this this

82:23

sense of waking up one day and feeling

82:24

durable a part of that is me saying to

82:27

myself actually you don’t deserve to be

82:29

treated like that

82:30

this isn’t an isolated experience and

82:33

you don’t need to put up with that open

82:35

bracket anymore close bracket but i

82:37

should never have had to have put up

82:38

with that what you’re talking about

82:40

there of

82:41

realizing that your self-worth needed to

82:44

change you were worth more you reframed

82:47

that for yourself i did yeah but was

82:49

that reframe enough on its own did you

82:52

need to back that up with action more

82:55

work more tools instead of you just

82:57

saying the words

82:59

to actually feel it to believe it yeah

83:02

because you know i’ve got choices in

83:03

this i can go and approach

83:06

you know these relatives and have it out

83:09

people would say but also i know that

83:12

that’s not going to change anything all

83:14

that’s likely to achieve is a flash

83:16

point of some sort and we’ll end back

83:18

exactly where we were a year ago

83:21

or it’ll end up with

83:23

83:24

not honoring my own worth

83:26

and just pretending that none of it

83:28

really happened or none of it was really

83:30

important anyway you know there’s i’m

83:31

very insistent i take responsibility for

83:33

what i do and what i say and what i’ve

83:35

done i need for relationships to work

83:40

that needs to happen on both sides yeah

83:42

i very much had the sense that if i was

83:45

to expose myself to that relationship

83:49

again then it was only ever going to be

83:51

more of what had been and i wasn’t up

83:54

for that i’m not up for that i don’t

83:56

want it i love my family but it doesn’t

83:58

mean that i have to love their behavior

84:00

or put up with it if it’s toxic it’s the

84:03

great audacity of

84:05

saying to somebody else you’re selfish

84:08

what you do is selfish you’re not

84:10

thinking about me

84:12

do all these things to please me be who

84:14

i need you to be yeah to please me yeah

84:17

you’re the selfish one yeah and you know

84:20

like an audacity

84:22

the audacity

84:26

you’re the selfish one you’re the one

84:28

who’s letting us down because you can’t

84:30

84:31

who

84:32

we want you to be

84:34

i realize that i can’t control their

84:35

behavior or the way they choose to look

84:37

at a situation or life in general but i

84:40

can make a different choice for myself

84:42

it doesn’t excuse them it doesn’t excuse

84:44

their behaviors because that’s still

84:46

unacceptable but i had to ask myself how

84:48

long do i let their behavior influence

84:50

the way i choose to live my life and

84:52

feel about myself you know like i needed

84:54

to assess the choices i was making and

84:56

take responsibility for them yeah and

84:58

derrick mcmanus spoke about this last

85:00

episode he told us that when he decided

85:02

to take up a career that put him in a

85:03

high-risk situation he had to

85:05

consciously take responsibility for

85:07

those choices he was making

85:10

i am the maker of my own destiny if if

85:13

you want to look at it that way and i

85:15

still believe that applies to me even

85:16

now in my own business of speaking my

85:19

raising my children my driving my car we

85:22

all make choices and we need to take

85:24

responsibility for those choices sure

85:26

there’s a little bit of luck that plays

85:27

in lots of different things but the

85:29

majority of our life is

85:32

as a result of choices we consciously

85:34

make or try to not make because

85:37

sometimes we just try to avoid it or

85:39

live in denial but i am very aware that

85:42

it’s you know my choices have put me in

85:44

circumstances where things can happen

85:46

good and bad and that’s that’s an

85:48

important one to remember too we make

85:50

choices that have great results but

85:52

sometimes people focus only on the

85:54

negative ones that philosophy of now

85:56

that we make our own we make our own

85:58

destiny we’re the masters of our own

85:59

choices was that because of the incident

86:02

or was that something that you already

86:04

had as a life belief before that

86:06

definitely a life belief before that so

86:08

when i talk about taking responsibility

86:10

for choices i

86:12

went one step further again than what

86:14

most people do being a policeman

86:16

everybody knows that we are in

86:17

situations where we may be shot and

86:19

injured we may be shot and killed

86:20

everybody knows that but very few

86:22

coppers actually talk about i may be

86:25

shot and injured i may be shot and

86:27

killed with their partners and say if

86:29

these things happen what’s our life

86:31

going to look like so i put myself in a

86:33

situation where i may be shot and

86:34

injured i may be shot and killed and so

86:36

when it did happen i’d already prepared

86:38

myself physically mentally and and

86:40

emotionally the emotionally is a very

86:42

important one but i prepared myself

86:44

physically mentally and emotionally for

86:46

the choices that i’d made and the

86:48

possible consequences of those choices

86:51

okay so when it comes to people’s

86:53

openness to trying out what some people

86:55

might quickly jump to label as

86:57

we would oh no

86:59

no no no no i i have to stop you here

87:02

because yeah we have to be clear that

87:04

even though you’re on chamber

87:06

music uh-huh which i which i love

87:09

we love our woo-woo we’re not

87:12

we’re not on

87:13

all we we have we have a spreadsheet and

87:16

it has

87:20

we have a spreadsheet where we’ve been

87:21

keeping our uh daily and weekly tarot

87:24

cards that we need to update soon

87:26

actually that we’ve pulled out for the

87:28

last you know year or so to see if we’re

87:30

getting

87:31

anyway we have a spreadsheet

87:33

it’s a

87:36

we have a spreadsheet for our tarik

87:41

i mean we love our woo-woo and you know

87:43

how much i love a spreadsheet so the two

87:45

things together it’s just

87:48

chef’s kiss channeling the king of cups

87:50

as we speak but annie harvey was able to

87:52

provide some perspective

87:54

on responses across the different

87:55

generations of people she works with

87:58

do you find that there are different

88:00

responses with the different generations

88:02

that you work with i’m thinking to a

88:03

specific example with my own dad

88:05

and when he was alive we tried to get

88:08

him to meditate

88:10

um and it was a hard no

88:12

but

88:14

when we suggested maybe he’d like to

88:16

listen to the relaxation cd which was

88:18

basically a meditation cd he was okay

88:20

absolutely it’s how i mean you’ve got to

88:22

get them to work out what they like but

88:24

i thought that would be the case when i

88:26

first started trying it and i’d say my

88:28

youngest client is four and my oldest is

88:32

uh she’s just turned 96

88:35

in brisbane i teach her online and she

88:38

she’s an amazing woman she’s actually a

88:40

nun so she’s obviously done a lot of

88:41

praying her whole life but she really

88:43

wants to learn mindfulness and

88:45

meditation so she’s taken to it really

88:48

really simply but i remember trying to

88:50

get my dad to just count to ten a few

88:52

years ago and that was hilarious

88:54

conversation he counted to ten in very

88:58

angrily with lots of anxiety so that

89:00

didn’t work

89:00

[Laughter]

89:02

so yeah dependent you know there’s lots

89:04

of lots of little tricks but i think

89:06

they’ve you know we’ve talked about

89:08

people coming when they’re in crisis or

89:10

in burnout to client then go and find

89:12

help and i think that’s why i like the

89:14

prevention side of it but we’ve left it

89:17

too long by then

89:18

yeah but a lot of people that would come

89:20

to my mindfulness classes are not quite

89:23

in crisis but they’re not far off

89:25

they’ve probably been told by a

89:26

psychologist or a doctor to go and learn

89:28

and that’s great that’s wonderful they

89:30

all come and that age group would range

89:32

probably not

89:33

the average age i would reckon would be

89:36

in their 50s and 60s but sometimes they

89:39

have teenagers in the room and so it’s

89:41

they they have a certain motivation for

89:43

being there and it’s normally based

89:44

around reducing anxiety or getting

89:46

better sleep or getting on with my work

89:49

colleagues or whatever it is i wonder

89:51

with the um the stillness thing as well

89:53

whether belief changing needs to come

89:55

into this because i know with myself i

89:58

have no problems with being still until

90:00

a thought creeps in that somebody’s

90:01

going to walk in and accuse me of being

90:02

lazy or somebody does walk in and give

90:04

me being lazy because there’s something

90:06

else to do do we need to tackle that as

90:07

a part of this yeah definitely that’s

90:10

your unbelief systems i guess and it’s

90:12

you know in the end is once you’ve done

90:14

these it depends what you’re doing in

90:15

the stillness i mean you know many

90:17

people say i can sit still for hours as

90:19

long as the tv’s on or i’ve got a book

90:21

in my hand or whatever and that’s great

90:23

but this stillness is with nothing just

90:25

with your own thoughts and emotions and

90:27

that’s that’s why it’s so hard

90:30

chris helder has an excellent example to

90:33

illustrate a simple reframe explaining

90:36

how he changed his perspective about

90:38

loneliness and how we can change our

90:41

thinking on the matters that are

90:42

impacting us

90:44

i really like one of the examples that

90:46

you do give about how you come across

90:48

people sometimes who try to challenge

90:50

you on being lonely or challenge you on

90:52

when you’re traveling that you you don’t

90:54

have any company that type of thing and

90:56

your response is invariably well i like

90:59

aloneness you seem to be able to get

91:01

across that you actually it’s not about

91:02

loneliness it’s about enjoying your own

91:04

company is that something that you’ve

91:05

always felt or something that you

91:07

reframed oh i think that’s something i

91:09

probably reframed i think i i realized

91:12

that i am you know travel was to where

91:14

you know i literally most years would be

91:16

over 100 nights a year in a hotel and

91:18

and getting to that reality 150 odd

91:21

flights and i’m going overseas and

91:23

and you know people would always come up

91:24

to me and say oh you must hate that

91:26

travel you know you must hate all that

91:27

travel and and um you know it’s funny

91:30

how people used to just say that so

91:32

often and i’d be like no hang on i could

91:34

change it i mean i live in melbourne so

91:35

i could i could change it i could just

91:37

do melbourne gigs and there’d be no

91:38

travel

91:39

but no i’m not gonna because first of

91:41

all i love it and second of all you know

91:43

um you know i love presenting and you

91:45

know so if i’m not gonna change it

91:47

what’s my useful belief about it and i

91:49

guess that’s a really main thing for

91:51

your listeners to really get around this

91:53

i mean are you gonna change something

91:55

and if you’re not and this is probably

91:57

most important i mean ultimately change

91:59

i mean change it all right go get

92:01

yourself a

92:02

you know van gogh go get yourself a

92:04

wicked van and drive up to port douglas

92:06

and live in the back of a van right i

92:08

mean boom

92:09

you could do that right change it but if

92:11

you’re not gonna change it

92:13

and actually a lot of times if you can’t

92:15

change it or people feel they can’t

92:16

change it or they won’t change it you

92:19

know i mean there’s situations where

92:20

people are like no this is what i’m

92:22

gonna do because this is i’ve got three

92:23

kids and i’m gonna this is it’s not what

92:26

i want to do but it is what i’m gonna do

92:28

so if you’re not gonna change it well

92:30

then you only got one option if you

92:31

really want to find the joy in every day

92:33

and that’s to have a useful belief about

92:34

it or change it

92:36

all right or be or be miserable right so

92:39

those are your options

92:40

so we don’t want you to think that

92:42

chris’s message is one of toxic

92:43

positivity here you know how we have a

92:45

crusade against toxic positivity on

92:47

re-frame of mind yeah it’s actually

92:49

about being able to find the most useful

92:51

belief that we know we can invest

92:53

ourselves in to help bring about a

92:54

change we want yeah but what about when

92:56

we feel like we’ve got persistent

92:58

negative thoughts you know that’s not

93:01

easy to find a useful belief in there i

93:03

don’t think you know

93:04

annie harvey has got something to offer

93:06

on this and some techniques that might

93:07

help

93:09

one of the things you said um a few

93:10

minutes ago is that we half of our

93:12

thoughts um

93:14

every day are negative

93:15

i’ve never heard that before

93:18

again i don’t know how they’ve done it

93:19

yeah i was gonna say how did they get in

93:21

there and work that out 47 apparently

93:24

and we have a thing called a negativity

93:26

bias and it all goes back to that

93:28

old part of our brain that’s looking for

93:29

threats looking for something to go

93:31

wrong all the time and it’s called a

93:33

negativity bias and there’s a guy called

93:35

dr rick hansen who calls our brain

93:38

velcro for the negative thoughts and

93:40

teflon for the positive and you know

93:42

quite often if we’ve had a day where

93:44

someone’s told us 99 things that have

93:46

gone well and one thing that’s gone

93:48

wrong that’s the thing that we’re going

93:49

to sit and lie awake about at night

93:52

and here comes me wanting an hour’s

93:54

worth of free therapy annie um

93:57

so i have anxiety and anxiety disorder

94:00

and i’m wondering if you have kind of

94:02

tips and maybe

94:04

some kind of secret information on how

94:07

to make meditation easier because for me

94:09

i find it actually almost impossible to

94:12

stop i’ve found it easier to not

94:15

meditate but to do something that

94:17

requires really low

94:19

i suppose low focus like

94:21

scribbling or something like that

94:23

but um

94:26

help me and he helped me

94:29

is it the sitting still or is it the not

94:31

knowing what to do with your racing

94:32

thoughts oh i think it’s a bit of both

94:34

and you know what i i i’m not even i

94:37

often think is is it is it actually

94:38

anxiety or do i have something else but

94:40

i know that’s anxiety talking um because

94:44

i often think it’s not that the racing

94:45

thoughts are necessarily negative it’s

94:47

just oh look at that listen to that

94:49

here’s this thing going on what if i

94:51

think about this this this this this

94:52

this off it goes

94:54

and yeah i and i bounce my legs

94:58

yeah

94:59

so um

95:00

i mean a lot of people say to me

95:02

i can’t i can’t meditate because i can’t

95:05

stop my thoughts and you know my

95:07

response to that is you have about 80

95:09

000 thoughts a day so the scientists

95:11

will tell us i don’t know how they’ve

95:12

worked that out but say that 60 to 80

95:14

000 thoughts a day and

95:17

you know if meditation was going to stop

95:18

those thoughts um i’d be a millionaire

95:21

and a miracle worker by now so it’s more

95:24

about

95:25

noticing patterns of thought so your

95:27

anxiety probably would be more about

95:29

future and you know catastrophizing

95:31

about what might happen in the future

95:33

and then just learning to have a

95:34

different relationship with those

95:36

thoughts and being able to just notice

95:39

them because we all think that we are

95:41

our thoughts and emotions and through

95:43

meditation you learn that it’s a bit

95:44

like standing behind the waterfall you

95:47

can start observing them rather than

95:50

just being in them all the time

95:52

but it takes a lot of practice you know

95:55

it takes at least eight weeks of sitting

95:57

still for five or ten minutes every day

95:59

to actually feel

96:01

quite often feel any benefit most people

96:03

feel benefit in the first few weeks

96:04

eight weeks it sounds like i’ve given up

96:06

too early most of the time then a lot of

96:08

people do yeah and the the basic

96:10

practice is to

96:12

if you can sit i mean you can do it

96:13

walking

96:14

96:15

you can do it lying down you can do it

96:16

standing you don’t have to you don’t

96:18

have to sit cross-legged or anything

96:19

like that i do it lie down and then i

96:21

fall asleep

96:22

[Laughter]

96:26

um and the basic practice is to

96:29

say that you’re concentrating i mean

96:30

sometimes if you’ve got anxiety even

96:32

concentrating your breath makes people

96:34

more anxious so you know i would suggest

96:36

if you’re gonna learn you learn with an

96:38

expert but

96:40

you say you’re concentrating on your

96:42

breath if you’re just your belly rising

96:44

and falling and then you get distracted

96:46

by most often it will be a negative

96:49

thought because half of our thoughts are

96:50

negative each day

96:52

and you just you might say

96:55

label it thinking

96:57

or label it worrying or whatever it is

96:58

and just labeling it that gives you a

97:00

little bit of distance from it

97:02

and then you come back to your belly

97:04

rising and falling and you might do that

97:05

a hundred times in five minutes

97:08

but but that is actually what’s training

97:10

our brain and changing those neural

97:12

pathways and i think

97:14

most people don’t recognize that they

97:16

just see it you’ve got to sit still and

97:17

quiet and go into some zen zone and stop

97:21

your thoughts and that’s pretty

97:22

impossible i tried to do a buddhism one

97:26

once where they made us sit on these

97:27

little bean bag things for about 40

97:29

minutes and i think i didn’t want to be

97:31

rude and get up and walk out but i’ve

97:34

never when it was middle time

97:37

uh tea time in between the two sessions

97:39

i’ve never ran so fast from a place

97:41

before

97:43

because

97:44

i was just there just listening to the

97:46

sounds for 40 minutes going

97:48

i can hear everyone breathe

97:50

yeah yeah yeah it’s really it’s really

97:53

hard so start off really small sit down

97:55

or stand up for 30 seconds and see if

97:58

you can just notice your belly rising

98:00

and falling and keep coming back to that

98:02

for 30 seconds and once you’ve stood for

98:04

30 seconds you can probably do another

98:06

30 seconds just build up from that

98:08

really but where i when i went to

98:10

thailand i was similar to you i wasn’t

98:12

sat on a beautiful bean bag i was sat on

98:15

a hard wooden floor

98:17

and we had wooden beds and wooden

98:18

pillows to sleep at night it was only

98:20

for three days it felt like three years

98:21

but it was only three days

98:23

and

98:24

it was quite funny because i didn’t take

98:26

any um mosquito repellent with me

98:28

because i

98:30

decided that i was in a buddhist country

98:32

and i was in a rainforest and that would

98:34

not be good to take my bottle of deet

98:35

with me but i’m i’m english as you can

98:38

hear and i have very fair skin and i was

98:40

covered in mosquito bites within about

98:42

three hours

98:43

and we were sitting meditating for nine

98:45

hours every day on the floor

98:48

and it’s quite a good metaphor for life

98:50

because i wanted to scratch the itch all

98:53

the time which is a great metaphor for

98:54

the things that frustrate us in life and

98:57

i learned to be able to be to not

99:00

scratch as much i mean i definitely was

99:02

but not scratch as much so

99:04

um but yeah it was pretty painful

99:06

experience but it was also really

99:08

powerful and that’s what made me want to

99:09

come back and teach this thing but for

99:11

like five minutes a day not nine hours

99:15

i’m happy to leave the nine-hour ones to

99:17

the experts yes definitely i’m guessing

99:20

with wooden beds being a part of that

99:21

equation you’re not one of the people

99:23

who get the pleasure of booking the

99:25

family holidays very often

99:26

[Laughter]

99:28

yeah it was certainly a one-off

99:33

quite like that again

99:36

so for chris helder how does a

99:37

motivational speaker motivate himself we

99:40

asked him what’s in his toolkit

99:42

i think it’s just that conscious

99:44

awareness when we catch ourselves say

99:45

something negative and one of the funny

99:47

things is when you’re like you write a

99:49

book like useful belief and you’ve got

99:50

teenagers and i’ll catch myself and i’ll

99:53

say something negative because we’re

99:54

humans and and then it’s still funny

99:56

because the kids will look at me go well

99:58

that’s not a very useful belief is it

100:00

that right and

100:02

and um

100:03

and it’s it’s so funny because you know

100:05

what happened from the you know when i

100:07

first started to talk about this idea

100:08

about 10 years ago right and

100:11

it is funny that i i sometimes put this

100:13

little voice into it as well but that’s

100:15

not a very useful belief is it chris and

100:17

and so it’s sort of become this sort of

100:19

funny thing and i’ll catch myself and

100:21

i’ll be thinking something negative and

100:23

it is just put a little funny voice on

100:24

it i don’t know i don’t know well that’s

100:26

not a very useful physical and and it

100:28

just sort of does

100:29

you know again little you know a little

100:31

reframing again you can you just

100:34

lightens the mood a little bit i have a

100:36

little smile on my face and you go from

100:37

there so

100:39

it’s uh it is it isn’t hard i think it’s

100:41

a really simple shift and

100:43

and i think it’s just a really

100:45

it’s just moving to a place of

100:46

consciousness

100:47

and then there’s not a you know it’s not

100:49

right and wrong it’s just

100:51

what’s useful what would be a useful way

100:54

i got to go to this meeting i hate this

100:55

meeting well i gotta go so if i’m gonna

100:58

go this is best time in the history of

100:59

the world go to a sales meeting and

101:01

you open your brain up and you might see

101:03

something

101:04

annie’s toolkit includes some practical

101:06

tips for when our thoughts feel like

101:08

they’re getting the better of us

101:10

sometimes

101:11

things get caught in that loop i call it

101:13

the anxiety loop where this like one

101:15

phrase will play over and over and over

101:16

for a week if it was something that

101:19

you know was quite affecting

101:21

yeah it’s it’s called the negativity

101:23

bias and we don’t have it we don’t all

101:24

have uh we actually do all have anxiety

101:27

we don’t all have an anxiety disorder

101:28

but we all have

101:30

anxiety and i think not that i’m a

101:32

buddhist but the buddhist would say

101:34

would call it this um first and second

101:36

arrow so the first arrow is

101:38

you know some physical or emotional

101:41

situation that we can’t control it’s in

101:43

our life and the second arrow is what we

101:46

think about that situation and that

101:48

create all that thinking about it so

101:51

being anxious about your anxiety

101:52

effectively

101:54

creates more and more suffering

101:56

oh there’s no worse feeling than feeling

101:57

bad that you feel bad that one gets me

102:00

all the time

102:01

yeah yeah you’ve probably i mean i’m

102:03

sure you’ve been told taught some

102:04

breathing techniques yes yeah yeah yeah

102:07

and that’s again why laughter is good

102:09

because one of the techniques that a

102:11

psychologist would teach is four seven

102:13

eight breathing and i i often when i’m

102:16

stressed i don’t remember the middle

102:17

number so i remember the four and eight

102:20

or the double breathing so you’re

102:22

exhaling for twice as long as you’re

102:24

inhaling and it could be three six five

102:26

ten it doesn’t really matter and that’s

102:28

hacking into our nervous system and

102:30

turning off our stress response

102:32

and laughter actually does that

102:33

naturally so if we’re laughing if we’ve

102:35

got a big belly laugh going on we’re

102:38

actually exhaling much longer than we’re

102:39

inhaling

102:41

it’s got a double whammy to it i noticed

102:43

a few times in this conversation you’ve

102:45

said that you um

102:47

kind of look at the things that you’re

102:48

saying out loud about

102:50

yourself about situations and try and

102:53

rephrase and reframe those when you’re

102:55

doing it is that really conscious top of

102:57

mind every conversation you have every

103:00

day no because that’s exhausting but

103:03

i will often look back on the day and i

103:05

journal quite a lot so i’d look back on

103:08

a situation

103:09

i think the best thing i’ve been taught

103:11

recently by a great friend is when you

103:14

are and again you need some

103:15

self-awareness so when you’re feeling

103:18

a big emotion and there’s nothing wrong

103:19

with that

103:21

that’s often most often created by a

103:24

thought so if i’m feeling

103:26

anxious or fearful or whatever um

103:28

probably i feel that in my throat so

103:30

that’ll be my first sign and i would say

103:32

to my in the moment i would say to

103:33

myself what am i telling myself right

103:35

now

103:36

and that you know but as you said that’s

103:38

that’s another

103:40

a year of therapy because that’s a lot

103:42

of cognitive behavior therapy but it’s

103:43

really interesting just to catch your

103:45

thinking and what are you saying to

103:46

yourself that has created that fear in

103:48

your throat for example and then i’ve

103:50

worked through that not not in the

103:51

moment necessarily

103:53

but certainly journaling about it the

103:55

night that night or the next day or

103:57

something that’s really helped i have to

103:59

practice what i preach that is the big

104:00

thing about anybody that works in the

104:02

area of well-being you know everyone

104:03

will say well you you work in well-being

104:05

and mental health you you’ll be fine or

104:07

you can’t burn out or whatever so i have

104:09

to really try and practice what i preach

104:11

and recognize the signs and it’s okay to

104:14

have a day in my pajamas now and again

104:17

so now we’ve heard from annie and chris

104:19

and we’ve got some things in our tool

104:21

kit andy i want to go back to this idea

104:23

of what you said about feeling shame at

104:26

receiving cutlery because that letter

104:29

the fork the thing that the kids made it

104:32

was all trying to intentionally play on

104:35

what would be to manipulate me to

104:37

manipulate you yes you’re feeling shame

104:40

about your role in things like you’ve

104:42

done something wrong i’m i’m just

104:44

wondering what that piece is because i

104:47

really think that people can relate to

104:48

this with in terms of family because

104:51

of the weaponized love concept because

104:53

we weaponize love true love is

104:56

unconditional and

104:58

but familial love is never unconditional

105:01

you feel shame and

105:03

that’s your emotion that’s on you you i

105:05

suppose yeah that’s right that’s my

105:06

doing that’s your doing they’re not

105:07

responsible for that you can choose how

105:10

you are feeling about that as best you

105:12

can or you know that’s

105:13

if we

105:15

take our responsibility for it but they

105:17

know you and know

105:19

you well enough

105:20

to know those buttons

105:22

and they know that by sending you things

105:24

like that that they would be

105:27

contributing to that and not just

105:28

contributing to that but intentionally

105:30

trying to cause that so that they can

105:32

manipulate a result that they want

105:35

while calling you selfish yeah because i

105:38

think sometimes we really accept some

105:41

shitty behavior from people who

105:44

are related to us by blood because we

105:47

think we have to because blood is

105:49

thicker than water as is commonly

105:51

dragged out it’s not even necessarily by

105:54

blood relationships yeah more closely

105:57

intertwined the relationship the more

105:59

likely we are to accept other people’s

106:01

especially if we don’t have our own

106:03

self-worth yeah and not set you know

106:05

healthy boundaries for ourselves and we

106:07

get taught at such i don’t know it’s

106:10

it’s probably prevalent in everything

106:12

that our worth is derived by the people

106:15

around us you or the things around us

106:18

it’s like back to that money loop you

106:20

know if you don’t make enough money

106:22

don’t have enough money you don’t have

106:24

as much worth or as much value if you

106:26

don’t have a job that makes the hockey

106:29

woman go oh that’s cool

106:32

you’re just you’re treated like everyday

106:34

scum we have these relationships with

106:37

people so that we can

106:39

it’s like what can we get from you what

106:41

value do you offer us and so we think

106:45

that we’re worthless

106:47

if we don’t offer somebody else value i

106:51

think to come back to that shame thing

106:52

is that we’re probably conditioned as a

106:55

society that if we no longer offer

106:57

somebody value then there’s something

106:59

wrong with us and it’s our fault you

107:02

know there’s certainly that and i’ve

107:05

kind of had a lot of time obviously to

107:07

think about my relationship to that as

107:09

well and you know i’ve come to the place

107:11

i’m currently at with that and also you

107:13

know i talk about these family dynamics

107:15

and clearly there’s still more to the

107:17

story because you know if i talk about a

107:19

shift in dynamics it’s not just someone

107:21

saying to me

107:22

you know i’m going to really tell you

107:24

what everybody thought but it’s about

107:26

you know the the change in the nature of

107:28

relationships between you know family

107:30

members and that sort of stuff that

107:32

really kind of knocked me for sex after

107:34

the history of those relationships

107:36

particularly so amidst all of that is an

107:38

element of manipulation

107:41

as well with these sorts of situations

107:43

because if you know somebody so well you

107:46

damn well know what pushes their buttons

107:48

and that manipulation as well is someone

107:52

else is trying to control you for their

107:53

own benefit it’s

107:56

you know still looking

107:58

for what value you can give to them

107:59

because if you’re not giving them

108:01

something all the time that is feeding

108:02

them it’s you you’ve got no value you

108:05

you you need to be worth something to

108:08

them well it’s the classic gaslighting

108:09

approach isn’t it really well look what

108:11

you’ve made me do

108:14

look what you made me do i wouldn’t have

108:16

talked so nastily to you had you not

108:18

been like this

108:19

i wouldn’t have had to hit you if you

108:21

weren’t if you didn’t trigger me mm-hmm

108:23

that behavior can be completely

108:25

unacceptable 100

108:27

but at what point do we reflect on

108:29

ourselves and you know

108:32

patterns we we have been talking about

108:34

patterns you know some of these patterns

108:36

existed in your family for a long time

108:39

that you know i don’t think that when

108:40

kids are born they’re they’re not born

108:43

hating somebody they

108:45

pick up hateful beliefs from the people

108:47

around them you know people kids aren’t

108:49

born racists are they like they don’t

108:52

pop out like that exactly we learn that

108:54

stuff we’re all the victims of the

108:56

conditioning that’s come before us but

108:58

we also have the chance to change it

109:00

yeah we can all be the end in the chain

109:03

but i certainly am

109:04

[Music]

109:06

the end of the family branch as i’ve

109:07

heard from a few episodes that’s right

109:09

we can we can be the one that breaks the

109:11

pattern one of the things this series

109:13

inspired me to discuss with my mother is

109:16

that idea of childhood trauma about some

109:18

of the things that i felt like i went

109:20

through and she didn’t notice i suppose

109:22

because for me it was trauma and for her

109:24

it was tuesday but then when she told me

109:25

some of her stories from things that she

109:28

experienced as a kid i realized she had

109:30

the same trauma it manifested in a

109:32

different way and then she told me stuff

109:33

that her mother experienced and she had

109:36

traumas like that and she’d been

109:37

experiencing them so how far back do

109:40

these patterns go

109:41

someone has to step up and and break it

109:44

i have to break the cycle and we all

109:46

have the power to stand up and be the

109:48

one that breaks the cycle yeah we don’t

109:50

have to angrily mail letters to

109:52

manipulate other members of our family

109:54

into doing what we want to do

109:56

we can take our own responsibility for

109:59

how we feel because it’s about the only

110:01

thing that we have any hope of

110:03

controlling

110:04

and look at our role in things look at

110:06

how we feel about stuff also you know

110:09

success comes in many forms a lot of

110:11

people would say a broken family

110:13

relationship is a mark of failure

110:16

but i disagree there are plenty of

110:18

circumstances that i’ve observed not

110:21

just in my own like circumstance but

110:23

there are plenty of times that i’ve seen

110:26

where relationships have been unhealthy

110:28

and that it would be far better if those

110:31

people just didn’t have anything to do

110:33

with each other this concept of just

110:36

thrash it out and we’ll settle it all

110:39

it’s not always possible and you don’t

110:41

have to continually beat yourself up to

110:44

try and make that happen because

110:46

we’re all in different places you know

110:48

110:49

we’re all on different paths through our

110:51

lifetimes and as much as we’d love to be

110:54

everybody’s friend and please everybody

110:56

and be what everybody else expects of us

111:00

we’re much more complex than that and

111:01

family relationships are much more

111:03

complex than that and they’re not the

111:05

perfect things you see on tv no we get

111:07

sold this idea of unconditional love

111:10

being something that comes from your

111:11

family like they’ll love you no matter

111:12

what

111:14

nope no i’m sending cutlery in the post

111:18

well i’ll tell you what’s that’s

111:19

weaponised love

111:21

unconditional love does not look like if

111:24

you think this is bad push me some more

111:26

and i’ll tell you what they really

111:28

thought of you unconditional love that’s

111:30

not love unconditional love looks like

111:33

you are where you are and you are who

111:35

you are and i accept you and love the

111:38

whole of you regardless of anything else

111:41

yeah even if you’re in a place where you

111:44

are unlovable i still choose to love you

111:47

and that’s not a short walk no that’s

111:50

not easy how many times do we actually

111:52

genuinely experience that it’s pretty

111:55

rare

111:56

because it’s pretty rare that

111:57

unconditional love that we’re looking

111:59

for from other people it i don’t know if

112:01

it exists to be honest well you know

112:04

what it might have more of a chance if

112:06

individually we actually gave ourselves

112:09

permission to

112:10

love and value ourselves if we make

112:13

ourselves responsible for ourselves and

112:15

our own happiness

112:16

and we don’t make it anybody else’s

112:17

responsibility what’s left to post

112:19

cutlery about

112:22

yeah i just think that unconditional

112:24

love is something that we’re probably

112:26

all searching for it’s probably at the

112:28

heart of everything that we do we want

112:31

to feel that way and the only place

112:33

we’re ever going to get that is from

112:35

ourselves because other people are too

112:37

unreliable and have their own going

112:39

on so why should it be your

112:41

responsibility to make me happy it’s not

112:43

it’s not your responsibility to make me

112:44

happy but if you do hey that’s good for

112:47

me but it’s my responsibility to be

112:50

happy or to be accepting of all of my

112:52

emotions wherever they are yeah to be

112:54

fragile sometimes to be resilient other

112:57

times to be durable other times it’s i

113:00

can’t choose the behavior that you’re

113:02

gonna show can’t often choose the

113:05

circumstances i’m sure that ukrainians

113:08

never would have chosen to be fighting

113:10

for their lives in a war

113:12

but i suppose the only point of control

113:16

is that you can try and choose your

113:18

response to it and how you feel about it

113:21

and what happens next and it does take

113:24

action it’s not a passive thing no

113:27

it is a never-ending cycle of receiving

113:29

another piece of cutlery at a time every

113:31

day

113:32

and saying this fork affects me less

113:34

than this spoon did and this you know

113:37

the knife feels better than the fork and

113:39

then you know the bowl feels better than

113:41

the knife and eventually you’ve got a

113:44

whole set and it doesn’t matter by the

113:46

time you get to the mug it’s all good

113:49

so um

113:51

did we just have a breakthrough

113:53

i thought we said we did all of our

113:55

processing before we started recruiting

113:57

but i feel like we might have hit on

113:58

something really important i think i

114:00

think you i think you actually gave me

114:02

therapy in-situ

114:04

life therapy

114:06

live therapy recorded for you

114:10

i mean this certainly unlocks some food

114:12

for thought hasn’t it these interviews

114:14

that we’re having and that we’re

114:15

actually now sewing into our own journey

114:18

i just don’t think the learning ever

114:19

ends you know i think growth is

114:20

something that isn’t an end point i

114:22

think growth is something that’s

114:23

continual amazing food for thought i

114:26

mean it obviously meant so much to us

114:28

that

114:29

reframe of minds became the series title

114:33

you know that idea of us being able to

114:35

reframe the way that we think about

114:37

things that we have the power of our

114:39

thoughts and we can change that instead

114:42

of being at the effect of our emotions

114:44

yeah look we’ve maintained certainly up

114:47

to this point and we will continue to

114:48

maintain it’ll be a hill that we die on

114:51

that emotions are nothing to be ashamed

114:53

114:54

but there comes a time when we

114:55

definitely want to feel more of the good

114:57

stuff wherever we possibly can the thing

114:59

is though reframing our thoughts as

115:01

possible changing them as possible

115:04

so why don’t we do it

115:06

and we have the capability we sometimes

115:09

have the capability we sometimes make

115:11

the change we do it in some areas and

115:13

not in other areas i suppose as a human

115:16

we have the potential to do it but we

115:18

don’t yeah it seems we kind of get stuck

115:20

in these loops sometimes you know like

115:22

the the story i was telling earlier

115:24

about the mail so here’s my spin on on

115:26

that situation because if i had simply

115:28

chosen as i did to start reframing that

115:31

relationship and my relationship to it

115:34

and that kind of stuff for the months

115:36

that followed i wouldn’t have been

115:37

waking up at three o’clock in the

115:38

morning thinking ah having those

115:40

thoughts about

115:42

that situation or that interaction it

115:43

wouldn’t have bothered me that i get

115:45

these little surprise things in the mail

115:46

you know sometimes they don’t even put

115:48

their return address on it well actually

115:50

they never put their return address on

115:51

it and sometimes they actually use a

115:54

printed sticker rather than handwriting

115:55

so you know there’s just that added

115:57

element of surprise of the little you

115:59

know it’s a

116:01

it’s an emotional religion it’s an

116:03

emotional a little bit of weaponised

116:04

love you never know when it’s going to

116:05

explode in your face

116:08

a long time since something exploded in

116:10

the face

116:11

anyway um what i’m saying though is that

116:14

if i was simply able to choose to just

116:17

go yeah i’ve reframed it i’m fine move

116:19

on that’s toxic positivity because yeah

116:22

i can reframe it but the fact that i’m

116:23

actually still coming back emotionally

116:25

at that point and being triggered by

116:28

something somebody said or something

116:30

somebody did it it tells me that there’s

116:33

something else going on there you know

116:35

there’s something pulling me back there

116:36

that i also need maybe it needs a

116:39

reframe maybe there’s something else

116:40

there are so many tools out there to

116:41

help us right it is entirely possible

116:44

for us to reframe almost anything but we

116:47

need to make sure that that reframe

116:49

isn’t just sticking a big

116:50

band-aid over it and pretending it

116:52

doesn’t exist because it’s only gonna

116:54

wake us up at three in the morning and

116:56

keep getting bigger and bigger and

116:57

bigger until we end up on the floor of

117:00

the shower or worse yeah let’s get down

117:02

to it next episode you know why we’re

117:04

repeating those old behaviors and

117:05

thought patterns why are we addicted to

117:08

the old ways that we’ve done things why

117:10

are they so hard to break yeah look it

117:12

really got me wondering because

117:14

you know here i am i know that it’s not

117:16

good for me but my brain insists on

117:18

taking me back to these places you know

117:20

at this point in time and so i wondered

117:22

maybe like someone who has a problem

117:24

with drug or alcohol abuse with

117:26

addiction in those substances i wonder

117:28

if there’s any link

117:30

from a brain chemistry point of view in

117:32

the way that our brain actually handles

117:34

this sort of anxiety so next time on

117:37

reframe of mind we talked to marie

117:39

thiessen ac from the matilda center to

117:42

explore how addictions can grip us

117:44

we do get caught up in the shoulds and

117:47

as you were talking then i was thinking

117:48

yeah people feel like they should be

117:50

able to get better or it shouldn’t be

117:52

like this and part of the responding and

117:55

treatment for alcohol use disorders and

117:58

drug use disorders is around helping us

118:00

to see our way through those mind traps

118:04

you’ve been hearing our story now we

118:05

really want to hear yours connect with

118:08

reframe of mind on instagram facebook

118:10

tick tock and twitter or connect with at

118:12

welcome change media on linkedin you can

118:14

also contact us via

118:16

reframeofmind.com.u with your stories or

118:18

suggestions for future topics

118:20

we’d like to thank today’s guests for

118:22

sharing their personal stories and

118:23

insights and for more information on any

118:25

of the subjects guests or references

118:27

used in this episode please see our show

118:29

notes or

118:31

reframeofmind.com.au reframe of mind is

118:33

a welcome change media production

118:35

[Music]

118:41

louise and andy’s rants about the arts

118:44

who are we gonna on next

118:49

coming up next episode andy shits on

118:52

chamber music i like chamber music

118:54

i do too that wasn’t my point i remember

118:57

one day at school when someone turned up

118:59

from i think it was from the local

119:00

council and they had all these trained

119:02

dogs with them and one of the dogs was

119:04

jumping through the hoop and it was like

119:06

here go fetch the meaty bite and it’s

119:08

literally like we’re fetching a meaty

119:09

bite by jumping all through all these

119:11

hoops we’re not getting a meal at the

119:12

end of it we’re getting a meaty

119:14

bite i want more than a meaty bite and i

119:16

don’t want the rings on fire

119:18

that’s going on the coffee mug in the

119:19

merchandising when we sort it out i want

119:21

more than a meaty bite that can

119:23

be filed under

119:24

andy’s angry analogy

119:26

[Music]

119:26

[Laughter]

119:28

analogies of anger with andy leroy makes

119:30

you madder than a chamber pot i’ve never

119:33

heard that as angry as the chamber pot

119:34

is that a chamber music i just made it

119:38

wow oh so you’re making up um i’m making

119:40

up analogies you’re making up similes as

119:43

angry as a chamber

119:46

oh that’s angry wouldn’t you be angry if

119:49

someone kept taking a in you though

119:51

yeah i would

119:52

i would some people pay a lot of money

119:53

for that but i’d be angry i know i read

119:55

a story about that the other way

Episode 13: How to let go of expectations from others

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Guests this episode:

Annie Harvey

Chris Helder

Derrick McManus

Gallery

Show Notes:

Annie Harvey

Chris Helder

Derrick McManus

Transcript