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Episode 13: How to let go of expectations from others

Andy Le Roy & Louise Poole

When someone asks you how you are, do you tell them? Do they even want to know? 

Probably not.  

It’s just one part of life’s game of expectations and we keep playing along. 

Our worth is often derived by the people and stuff around us. And we think that we are worthless if we don’t offer other people value. 

But what would happen if we chose to let go of playing by the expectations set by someone (or something) else and stopped measuring our value by their perception of what we can offer them? 

It’s more than one person’s opinion. It’s systemic and built into the fabric of society. Our self-worth is linked to our value. And when we tie our value to money, possessions, careers, relationships etc. That becomes our compass for success and decision making. Even as kids, we were taught, and then teach our own, that we need to make choices that will get us a good career and income and set us up for the future. And we learn, and continue, the pattern of making decisions to please others while ignoring our emotions and needs. 

But we can break that pattern. We can make choices in accordance with our own values. 

In this episode of Reframe of Mind, Louise and Andy share their personal experiences with letting go of other people’s expectations and learning to make decisions in accordance with their own personal values; and discuss the concept of reframing our thoughts to better support our self-worth.  

They also look at the ‘human durability’ model with more from Derrick McManus, founder of the Australian Centre for Human Durability; Chat to motivational speaker Chris Helder, about his ‘Useful Belief’ philosophy, and how he was able to apply the technique to reframing his own loss of gigs at the start of the pandemic; and to mindfulness coach and ‘Still Effect’ author Annie Harvey to get her practical tips on how to reframe our thoughts around situations that are out of our practical control. 

You can connect with Louise & Andy on Reframe of Mind’s social media directly below:

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Reframe of Mind contains discussion around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. If you are concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice. 

Some of the main crisis lines in Australia are listed on our Mental Health Crisis Resources page, including those that operate 24/7 like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.

Guests this episode:

Annie Harvey

Mindfulness expert, author & workplace pattern interrupter

Chris Helder

Motivational Speaker & Author

Derrick McManus

Founder, Australian Centre for Durability

Gallery

Show Notes:

Here’s some extra things you might not know about our guests, as well as some of the things mentioned during the episode.

Annie Harvey

Annie works with adults and teens to help maximise their wellbeing and resilience. In our current world of ‘busyness’, she shows us not only how to be STILL just for a few moments, but also shares her own strategies to prevent burnout. All her tools are evidenced based and well researched and she only shares what she uses herself.

Annie works with individuals and groups: from Education to Health & Social Work, from Public to the Corporate sector. Annie offers keynotes, energisers, workshops, training and 1:1 mentoring and coaching.

Check out Annie’s website The Still Effect here.

Watch Annie’s Ted Talk on Laughter:

Listen to Annie talk about burnout in the workplace in a previous episode of Reframe of Mind: Mental Health & Workplace culture; Is there a better way?

Connect with Annie on her LinkedIn 

 

 

Chris Helder

Keynote speaker and motivational author, Chris Helder is an international business communication expert whose presentations have are pitched at transforming people communicate with clients, customers, colleagues, staff and teams.

He has been a professional speaker for 18 years and has delivered over 2,450 presentations around the world. He is the bestselling author of “The Ultimate Book of Influence” which has been published in five languages, “Useful Belief”, one of the highest selling Australian business books of all time and “Cut The Noise” which is about achieving better results with greater focus. Learn more about Chris or book him for your next business event at chrishelder.com

Watch Chris’ Ted x Melbourne talk on Useful Beliefs:

Read Chris Helder’s book Useful Belief

Watch one of Chris’ keynote speeches here:

Derrick McManus

Derrick McManus was a South Australian Police officer operating in the elite Special Tasks And Rescue (STAR) Group.  He held specialist skills as a sniper, diver and was trained by the military elite Special Air Services Regiment (SAS) in counter-terrorist tactics. This is a physically, mentally and emotionally demanding environment.  It is an extreme, potentially overwhelming, VUCA environment in every way.

Derrick’s team had been tasked to arrest a high-risk offender.  He was obviously not very keen on being arrested. He fired 18 times in less than 5 seconds and hit Derrick 14 times. Derrick was then lying on the ground bleeding for 3 hours prior to his rescue.

Doctors say, “I actually don’t know how Derrick survived. He’s an amazing human being.”

Derrick had proactively prepared himself physically, mentally AND emotionally for the challenges he could expect as a result of the choices he had made.  He took responsibility for his actions and for all possible consequences. This format has been developed into the model for Human Durability and forms the basis of the philosophies within the Australian Centre for Human Durability.

Listen to the previous episode of Reframe of Mind: Who is Derrick McManus?

Check out Derrick’s website at www.derrickmcmanus.com

Watch a showreel for Derrick’s keynote speaking:

Watch an A Current Affair story about Derrick, featuring an interview with the doctor that treated him on the scene of the siege:

Human Durability is underpinned by two key principles:

  • Open, honest and confronting conversations with yourself and those affected by your actions (family, team or organisation)
  • Take responsibility for our decisions, actions and outcomes, both good and bad

Transcript

Read along with the Youtube episode here: 

00:00
we acknowledge the yuggera and kaurna
00:01
nations as traditional custodians of the
00:03
land on which we work live and learn and
00:06
their continuing connection with the
00:07
land waters and community we pay our
00:09
respects to them and their elders past
00:11
and present all content related to this
00:13
program is for general informational
00:15
purposes only and contains stories and
00:17
discussion around mental health that may
00:20
be disturbing to some listeners if you
00:22
are concerned about yourself or someone
00:24
you know please seek professional and
00:26
individual advice and support
00:28
more details are contained in our show
00:30
notes
00:32
it's 8 15. traffic is heavy on the
00:34
northern approach to the city so watch
00:36
out for those bottlenecks as you enter
00:38
the cbd as promised we've got deflector
00:41
with us this morning to tell us about
00:43
the new film captain camouflage and the
00:45
shield of invisibility welcome deflector
00:48
thanks great to be here
00:49
[Applause]
00:51
we still need to calibrate
00:54
in case you hadn't guessed we've got
00:56
deflector wired up to our trusty lie
00:58
detector for a bit of fun this morning
01:01
while we have a chat about the film
01:03
another super release from the team
01:05
generica franchise to take us as far
01:08
away from reality as possible and that's
01:10
never a bad thing is it no not at all
01:14
oh a little machine's just raring to go
01:17
should we just get going sure let's do
01:19
this who's
01:21
why
01:22
is
01:23
it
01:24
anyway
01:28
okay a couple of questions first a warm
01:30
up did you have breakfast this morning
01:33
yes
01:34
do you play the lead character in the
01:36
film captain camouflage and the shield
01:39
of invisibility yes
01:41
fantastic let's play
01:45
did you enjoy making this film yeah i
01:47
had a ball
01:49
oh
01:50
really
01:52
sorry you didn't enjoy making it oh
01:55
um well you know there's always moments
01:57
here and there you think back on and you
01:58
do differently you know fair enough it's
02:00
not always a case of black and white hey
02:03
now there's been some hot gossip
02:04
floating around about you and the
02:06
leading lady did you two get it on while
02:10
filming
02:11
no i can safely say we did not
02:17
i guess your wife might have had
02:18
something to say about that hey i'm
02:21
pretty sure she would so there was
02:23
nobody else on set you fancied ah no
02:27
[Applause]
02:30
no
02:31
no no no really
02:34
maybe we should move on things seem to
02:36
be going really well for you at the
02:38
moment you must feel like you're on top
02:39
of the world yeah totally i couldn't be
02:42
happier
02:43
oh really what's really happening
02:45
deflector well okay i'm gonna be honest
02:48
okay so i just haven't been getting
02:51
great sleep lately
02:53
is that all that's going on yeah pretty
02:55
much
02:56
i mean i've got a lot on my mind at the
02:58
moment
02:59
life must be pretty hectic with your new
03:02
superstar lifestyle yes
03:04
definitely
03:06
so these thoughts that are keeping you
03:07
awake any exciting ideas floating around
03:10
for the next project i've got a few
03:13
ideas floating around
03:14
i don't want to put you on the spot but
03:16
what kind of planes are you hatching oh
03:18
look it's mainly really thoughts about
03:21
upcoming auditions
03:23
and notes my director gave me on set for
03:25
the movie and how grateful i am for
03:27
everything that's being thrown at me
03:28
right now
03:29
um do you want to clarify any of that
03:32
like what's being thrown at you just all
03:34
the great opportunities
03:36
exclusive invitations
03:38
fine i'm just struggling a bit with the
03:40
success at the moment that's kind of
03:43
normal i suppose for someone who's
03:45
shocked to start him like you have
03:47
recently but you're okay yeah yeah yeah
03:50
i'm fine
03:52
something tells me you might not be as
03:54
well as you're making out are you really
03:56
okay
03:59
no not really
04:02
to be honest
04:04
it all kind of gets a bit too much
04:05
sometimes
04:06
there are rumors around there was an
04:08
issue around your contract for the film
04:10
has that got anything to do with it no
04:14
um so is it the contract that's the
04:16
problem or the rumors i can't talk about
04:19
my contract it's strictly confidential
04:21
fair enough obviously lots swimming
04:23
around in your head there everything
04:25
good at home with mrs deflector yeah
04:28
couldn't be better
04:30
um
04:31
[Music]
04:32
look
04:35
it's just not the happiest of times for
04:37
us at the moment
04:38
we're both really busy and hardly see
04:40
each other okay
04:43
all we do is fight at the moment and
04:45
we're sleeping in separate beds
04:47
are you happy have you got the scoop you
04:48
wanted hey hey hey hey it's just a game
04:53
none of this is serious
04:56
do you um
04:57
can we stop this now i'm feeling a bit
04:59
exposed ah sure we can honestly
05:02
sometimes backs our pantry not ready for
05:05
hey maybe we can have you back another
05:07
time for another game would you like
05:09
that yep absolutely
05:11
i'd love to
05:13
that question how are you i don't want
05:15
to know the answer and chances are we
05:17
don't actually want to tell them hey
05:19
andy how are you today
05:21
this
05:22
is reframe of mind
05:25
that wasn't an answer the podcast that
05:27
cuts through the platitudes and gets to
05:29
the core of living authentically
05:31
challenging our assumptions and
05:32
improving mental health with the
05:33
guidance of good science philosophy and
05:35
learning from other people's lived
05:36
experiences we're your hosts andy leroy
05:39
and louise poole
05:41
no no really how are you we talk about
05:44
how you are in this podcast that's all
05:45
we've talked about for 13
05:48
12 episodes so far now andy how are you
05:50
yeah look you know what i am good i am
05:53
good thank you um i
05:55
as we all kind of unfurl during this
05:57
episode i used to get triggered by
05:59
certain things that i no longer get
06:01
triggered by and if i do get triggered
06:03
by them not quite so much or in the
06:05
quite the same ways so um i'm i am good
06:08
thank you how are you i'm i'm i'm i'm
06:10
good at the moment actually i think
06:12
things are
06:15
oh god the light detector
06:17
[Laughter]
06:20
sorry go on have we become human lie
06:22
detectors in this series
06:25
do you know i sit down when i sit down
06:26
with my psychologist every time every
06:28
time i've seen her and i must have seen
06:30
her like 30 40 times now like
06:33
down and she's like how are you i go
06:34
good thanks and then i sit down she goes
06:36
no
06:37
how are you
06:39
ah
06:39
[Music]
06:41
and that's what you're paying for
06:45
because we are so used to deflecting and
06:48
not actually telling people how we
06:49
really feel and i think there's a few
06:51
reasons for that one part of it is
06:53
people don't really want to know the
06:54
answer to the question when they ask
06:56
it's just a pleasantry and i think the
06:58
other thing is that we don't want to
07:01
tell people how we really feel we are we
07:03
spend a lot of time minimizing how we
07:04
feel so we don't have to admit it
07:06
whether it's to ourselves or anybody
07:08
else you know i think a big part of that
07:09
also is kind of how we sometimes wander
07:12
through life you know how prepared we
07:13
feel for conversations that we might not
07:16
actually be ready for like last episode
07:18
when we spoke to derek mcmanus who used
07:20
to be in the star group which was like a
07:23
tactical kind of operations group in the
07:25
south australian police and he was shot
07:27
14 times in less than five seconds
07:30
almost died yep amazing story ouch
07:33
doesn't really kind of sum it up it's
07:35
scary it is an amazing story but he told
07:38
us he'd already prepared for the worst
07:40
before that ever happened
07:41
the greater the risk the greater the
07:43
planning there are still lots of times
07:45
in my life where i go ah
07:47
i don't know about this one but let's
07:49
have a crack let's see how it goes and
07:51
there's very little risk management that
07:53
goes into it but the risk overall is
07:55
very small it might be that i will twist
07:58
an ankle or i might lose twenty dollars
08:01
in a gambling or a betting situation
08:04
it's not going to destroy my life and
08:06
it's like oh well you know even if the
08:07
worst case scenario goes it's only going
08:09
to be a hiccup the more dangerous the
08:11
situation is the more planning the more
08:14
consideration we've got to give to it
08:15
and that's when risk management really
08:17
comes to the fore most of the stuff that
08:19
we manage on a day-to-day basis we've
08:21
done it so often we actually go through
08:23
the risk management in our mind without
08:25
even thinking about it it runs through
08:27
the scenario of i've done this before
08:29
last time i did it it turned out well or
08:30
last time i did it i turned out badly
08:32
but i know why it turned out badly so
08:34
i'm going to do it differently this time
08:35
let's go now when you go into a larger
08:38
risk you've got to start taking a larger
08:40
look at how you manage that and
08:43
possibility of being shot and injured
08:44
possibility of being shot and killed
08:46
that's when i sat down and had that
08:47
discussion with my wife this is a very
08:50
serious risk the impact could be
08:52
catastrophic on my life and your life
08:54
are we both prepared to take that risk
08:56
do we have the resources to be able to
08:58
manage it um and if the worst case
08:59
scenario happened that i did die are we
09:02
already in an emotional position where
09:04
we have our mindset that it was
09:07
conscious we know what we were doing
09:09
derek had planned ahead for the real
09:10
prospect of getting shot and killed in
09:12
the line of duty
09:14
thankfully he survived yeah miraculously
09:16
he told us he didn't suffer ptsd from
09:18
the incident he actually puts it down to
09:20
durable thinking something that can be
09:22
applied to any situation where we
09:24
typically need to test the boundaries of
09:25
our comfort zones now this is reframing
09:28
an action we call this series reframe of
09:30
mind
09:31
and you know the concept of reframing i
09:33
think is something that we should
09:34
probably have a bit of a chat about hey
09:36
yes this episode we're going to deep
09:38
dive into the concept of reframing and
09:40
speak to motivational speaker chris
09:42
helder who shares his method to change
09:44
his thinking and reframe situations
09:47
we have to allow ourselves to be human i
09:49
you know i felt terrible about that i
09:50
felt sad about that i felt sad about
09:52
what i was watching happen and i mean i
09:54
do joke no one wants a sad motivational
09:56
speaker i mean and uh and and you know
09:59
we're allowed to feel and then come up
10:01
with a useful belief
10:03
and our mindfulness expert annie harvey
10:05
shares her practical tips to reframe our
10:07
thoughts around situations that are out
10:09
of our practical control
10:11
i have to practice what i preach that is
10:13
the big thing about anybody that works
10:15
in the area of well-being you know
10:16
everyone will say well you you work in
10:18
well-being and mental health you'll be
10:20
fine or you can't burn out or whatever
10:21
so i have to really try and practice
10:23
what i preach
10:24
so let's talk reframing because we're up
10:27
to episode 13 i don't think we've
10:28
mentioned reframing yet even though
10:30
that's
10:31
obviously was the most important thing
10:34
to come out of everything for us or one
10:36
of the most important things because we
10:37
named our bloody series after it
10:39
yeah well i think specifically and here
10:41
comes the reset the 12 episode and 90
10:43
years of combined i mean also we love to
10:45
pun and re we did re reframe
10:48
frame of mind
10:50
get it exactly i mean if nobody's got it
10:52
by now
10:53
it's is it funny if i've got to explain
10:55
it i don't know i don't know so you
10:57
could go reframe of mind as in reframe
10:59
or re as in regarding frame of mind
11:03
anyway i think sally goldman would love
11:05
that because she loves a pun but let's
11:07
move on
11:09
to the reset
11:11
or reset
11:13
of 12 episodes so far 90 years of
11:16
combined living in 30 seconds or less
11:18
go okay in our personal story so far
11:21
i've been gaining confidence after my
11:22
high profile radio job ended in brisbane
11:24
and andy's been learning to make better
11:26
choices for himself that support his own
11:28
needs rather than making decisions for
11:29
himself to please others we're starting
11:31
our business together at this point of
11:32
the story and we want to create
11:33
inclusive programs that are empower and
11:35
inspire while amplifying voices that
11:37
don't traditionally get air time also
11:39
this part of the story that we're
11:40
talking about is happening last year
11:41
when we were recording these interviews
11:43
to begin with with people like derek and
11:45
so some of the references that you might
11:47
hear and things are a little dated
11:48
because
11:49
you know
11:50
armageddon everything's at war the
11:52
world's moving on at a pace of a decade
11:54
per month so
11:56
there you have it the city i live in is
11:58
underwater as we're recording so time is
12:00
moving pretty quick in 2022. yeah
12:02
absolutely um you know not to mention
12:04
the um the invasion of ukraine so you
12:06
know we're very conscious that some of
12:08
these references
12:09
are outdated in such a short span of
12:11
time but they're all still relevant like
12:13
an old coat you know you can still pull
12:15
it out of the cupboards
12:18
i got in early with the analogy i mean
12:20
in now 30 seconds or less we forgot to
12:22
mention that for 12 episodes now andy
12:25
has been giving us some of
12:26
the worst analogies that
12:31
oh come on
12:32
he makes them up he loves the dick he
12:34
makes them up and they don't make any
12:35
sense so what's this pulling out an old
12:38
coat from the cupboard that you don't
12:39
wear anymore yeah because you know it's
12:42
still useful even though it's a bit
12:43
dated okay i know people will call it
12:46
band splaining but i just like to do an
12:47
analogy every now and then what's the
12:49
coat look like it's furry it it's long
12:52
it's a long coat and it's very fur
12:54
anymore i didn't say it was first it was
12:57
furry is it covered in cat hair probably
12:59
yeah most definitely if it's out of my
13:01
cupboard
13:02
also just want to say back on the
13:04
reframe thing you know like
13:06
you're resetting the reframe already i'm
13:08
resetting the reframe you know like
13:10
we've said we've taken 13 episodes to
13:11
get to the actual thing that inspired us
13:15
to name it name a series after it and
13:17
derek's is an example of a great way to
13:20
reframe something so he's taken in his
13:22
case a conversation a conversation
13:24
before he even got shot so conversation
13:27
he reframed a conversation before he had
13:29
to reframe it he was
13:30
pretty that's right he pre-framed it he
13:33
did
13:34
so just to kind of step back to how he
13:37
did that though like he had the
13:38
conversation which would ordinarily make
13:41
somebody sad or depressed or even
13:44
fearful to think about i could get
13:46
killed in this job but he reframed that
13:48
conversation to something useful for
13:50
himself because it meant that he could
13:52
plan ahead for it because it might
13:54
happen yeah so derek's story is that
13:56
extreme example of something that can go
13:58
wrong but most of us don't have to think
13:59
about the prospect of getting killed
14:01
when at work in the line of duty our
14:03
particular challenges might look like
14:05
something like starting a business um
14:07
for us at that time we spoke to derek it
14:09
definitely looked like that still does
14:12
by the way the uh the prospect of income
14:14
taking a long time to materialize long
14:19
time a lot longer than we would have
14:21
liked
14:22
you know at that time as well we were
14:24
thinking maybe nobody's gonna care what
14:26
we have to say that could be a thing um
14:28
it could be something like a paper cut
14:30
that comes along and wrecks our day
14:32
absolutely and according to derrick
14:33
that's just fine too
14:35
my brother is a uh
14:38
entrepreneurial type person who's run
14:40
his own business is now general manager
14:42
of an air conditioning company and i
14:44
laugh riley because he says derek i
14:46
don't care how many risks you take and
14:47
how much pain you went through when you
14:49
got shot if i get a paper cut in the
14:51
office i'm still going to whinge about
14:53
it because it damn well
14:56
so it kind of puts it in perspective and
14:58
and i i completely respect that and that
15:00
puts in perspective for everybody else
15:02
as well people go oh my gosh after
15:04
hearing what you've been through what
15:06
i'm going through is nothing no no what
15:08
you are going through is still
15:09
significant for your life and you know
15:12
i've been shot many times and and got
15:14
through that pain
15:16
but if i twist my ankle or hurt my thumb
15:20
i still feel the pain and it still
15:22
troubles me you know 24 7 until that
15:25
pain is gone so everything has to be put
15:27
in perspective of how it's affecting
15:29
your life at the moment and we've got to
15:30
deal with that at this stage of reality
15:32
and and give it credence and and deal
15:35
with it just the same as my brother
15:36
deals with his paper cuts
15:38
he would probably hate me if he ever
15:39
hears me talking about his paper cuts
15:41
like this
15:42
um but he but he very consciously said
15:44
it and he said a lot in front of lots of
15:46
other people because he likes to make
15:47
fun of me as well
15:49
but the reality is that stolen book for
15:51
that child is their reality and the same
15:54
process has worked for that child has
15:56
worked for the fighter pilots has worked
15:57
for you and your podcasts has worked for
16:00
me in my business now it is a universal
16:02
thing
16:03
so stepping back 12 months our worst
16:06
case scenario has happened no harpy this
16:08
time we said we said we're not going to
16:10
throw back
16:12
we're not going to throw back to too
16:13
many previous episodes because people
16:15
might be listening to this the first
16:16
time so it could be we're only allowed
16:18
one throwback an episode and we just had
16:20
it no more enough all right no more and
16:23
to be honest harpo has left me so that's
16:25
the cat and again if they didn't hear
16:27
the previous episode they don't know you
16:28
have a cat called hapo there are 12 to
16:30
choose from go back and listen today
16:36
and that's how you cross promote we'll
16:37
start a bingo card
16:39
what can you hear in the background of
16:41
our episodes is it a cat meowing is it a
16:44
dog barking will andy make an analogy in
16:46
the first 10 minutes of the episode
16:48
so 12 months ago look for all intended
16:51
purposes it could be 7 000 years with
16:53
the way people are describing events at
16:54
the moment
16:57
it feels like it happened in 1970 um it
17:00
does yeah it really does before either
17:04
it has been a long 12 months we would
17:07
say i suppose our worst case scenario
17:09
happened we
17:10
started our business we started
17:12
producing and publishing a podcast
17:13
called elevating experts which was
17:16
something we designed as uh i reckon a
17:18
sales magnet so we thought if we help
17:21
teach people some of the skills that you
17:23
know they need in podcasting we might
17:25
attract clients who want to work with
17:27
people to make podcasts almost like a
17:29
bit of a portfolio and an invitation to
17:32
come and work with us and you know we
17:33
think the episodes are fabulous and
17:35
we're just as funny on there if we're
17:37
not talking about mental health but
17:38
we're talking about how to organize your
17:40
business and write content
17:42
um
17:43
did it work
17:45
yeah we had some exciting moments
17:47
sometimes we'd log in and go oh we had
17:48
this many listeners the last week and
17:51
you know the numbers were there but
17:54
but then our podcast provider decided to
17:56
rejig the way they download their
17:57
numbers and what was looking quite
17:59
promising suddenly looked untenable and
18:02
when i say that it looks completely
18:04
completely bottomless
18:06
and not in a good way and then we
18:07
changed podcast providers after that for
18:09
this one we did we did so we love a cast
18:12
yeah well they can pay us for it sponsor
18:14
cast um
18:16
we released elevating experts just after
18:18
we had been speaking to hugh kearns from
18:20
episode nine because he called us out
18:22
and said that we needed to take action
18:25
because we were
18:26
experiencing our own imposter syndrome
18:28
um because we had had when we spoke to
18:30
hugh curns we had what did we have like
18:33
14 episodes sitting there ready to
18:35
release and we hadn't taken away
18:37
religious release exactly yeah because
18:39
if we put them out there and people
18:40
don't like them that's the worst case
18:41
scenario we put them out there and we
18:43
don't get any clients we've done all
18:44
this work for nothing we were showcasing
18:46
our skills as content creators who are
18:48
hoping to get some business and you know
18:50
the strategies we employed with all the
18:52
work that goes into it
18:55
i mean we've joked about it being the
18:56
most um expensive hobby in the world it
18:59
was basically like a full-time job
19:00
creating it with zero income there were
19:03
one or two potential customers at one
19:04
point yep but uh they ended up ghosting
19:07
us very early in the piece
19:16
there's this image of a ghost dog that
19:18
andy found once and it's literally a dog
19:20
with a sheet over its face and it's got
19:23
two eye holes cut out i think it's like
19:25
a halloween costume and every time
19:27
someone ghosted us next to their stuff
19:30
in our one note we just put this big
19:32
picture of ghost it goes dark
19:35
and then someone double ghosted us like
19:38
and then we found two ghost dogs
19:40
together in a photo yep and they got the
19:42
double ghost storm i i think maybe for
19:45
copyright purposes we can't put it in
19:46
the show notes but if you google that
19:48
i can assure you the images will pull it
19:50
up you know what i'm pretty sure we can
19:51
probably add the ghost dogs
19:53
i think we can
19:55
for your viewing pleasure we can
19:57
probably add that um but we're still
20:00
here though have you noticed yeah um but
20:02
this was 12 months ago and you know in
20:04
our stories we were kind of still at the
20:06
point in the end of
20:07
of what landed us here in the first
20:09
place which is
20:10
your career ending and my father dying
20:13
and the family dynamics changing so you
20:14
know these emotional impacts were
20:16
starting to bite us as well and on top
20:18
of that very early in the piece you know
20:20
partners would kind of say oh you know
20:21
you're making money what's going on you
20:23
know and i can tell you that there is
20:25
probably nothing more
20:28
anxiety-inducing he's not listening to
20:30
this it's okay go for it yeah then
20:32
feeling like you're failing and then
20:34
also
20:35
someone you know not intentionally
20:37
trying to call you a failure but drawing
20:39
attention to one of the kpis you're
20:42
putting yourself aka making money and
20:43
you're not making any so that kind of
20:46
yeah that kind of made me feel great we
20:48
had a couple of like we said about our
20:50
ghost dogs we had a couple of really
20:51
promising meetings with you know
20:54
high-profile companies like everything
20:56
seemed to be going great and they
20:58
propped them and it was like on the up
21:01
and up and i at one point uh went out
21:03
and said to my partner at the time you
21:06
can see how that worked out
21:07
spoiler alert um
21:10
phrase itself my partner at the time had
21:12
had a really good day today you know we
21:15
spoke to
21:16
this person at this business and they're
21:18
really keen and they they're getting
21:19
back to us oh and i really wanted to you
21:21
know talk about it and share that and
21:23
celebrate that win that we had even
21:25
though it wasn't a financial win yet
21:27
because it's the it's on the way to the
21:30
wind you know you've got to celebrate
21:31
those and the first thing he says is but
21:33
did you make any money and that was
21:36
really disheartening and every time i
21:38
tried to bring up the good progress we
21:41
were making those questions around money
21:43
kept coming back
21:44
and that really does impact that
21:47
self-worth that you have as a person
21:50
psychologically because money is so
21:53
intricately tied to our value it's
21:56
pretty hard to live in a modern society
21:58
without it you know money's important
22:00
but also
22:01
we were building something from the
22:03
ground up based on a technology and also
22:07
you know in podcasting as popular as it
22:09
has become it's still very new and even
22:12
now companies are only just starting to
22:14
realize the advertising potential
22:16
through it and so
22:17
we're working at that flash point of
22:20
innovation as far as communication is
22:22
concerned you know we're not denying
22:23
that money is important
22:25
if we'd be the last people to say that
22:27
but yeah and again it's not some kind of
22:29
toxic positivity angle that's saying
22:31
something to the effect of you know
22:32
money isn't everything just enjoy life
22:34
yes because tell that to the person
22:37
whose ability to pay for even the most
22:38
basic of things has run dry you know
22:40
this is about how we're still tying our
22:43
identity at that point of time 12 months
22:45
ago to what we did and the money we made
22:47
from it so for you you know you were a
22:49
leading morning show radio host on
22:51
commercial radio you led the surveys for
22:54
almost eight years and having come from
22:55
an audience of six hundred thousand
22:57
people a week to the prospect of nobody
23:00
came to listen it was gut wrenching it
23:02
was really hard i was there yes yes i
23:04
mean
23:05
god that was that was such a that was a
23:08
really prominent fear of mind that
23:11
before i even left that job that if i
23:14
did something else that nobody would
23:16
care that if i finally did to make
23:19
things that weren't hiding behind
23:21
anybody else's voice and put my values
23:23
in my heart and all that at the center
23:25
of what i did that nobody would give a
23:28
 
23:29
and if nobody cared then what was my
23:32
worth and what was my value if i wasn't
23:34
getting positive feedback from somebody
23:37
else like with radio in the form of
23:39
ratings or invitations to things or you
23:43
know people just thinking in general oh
23:45
that's a really cool job like or having
23:48
conversations with me if that feedback
23:50
wasn't there anymore what was my value
23:53
because i had tied my value to the job
23:56
that i did the persona that i had it was
24:00
all in there um i mean we didn't have no
24:03
listeners for elevating experts but it's
24:05
a lot to go from 600 000 listeners a
24:07
week to a grind for everyone especially
24:12
the quality of the content that i was
24:14
making didn't change in fact i think it
24:16
got better but not having the power of
24:19
an already existing media conglomerate
24:22
to
24:23
to push you to tell you that you're
24:24
there while you're doing everything
24:26
on your own and still making the quality
24:28
content it's um it's really hard like
24:31
it's really tough to feel like
24:33
you know nobody cares what you have to
24:35
say thankfully we've got some distance
24:37
from that now as well and you know we
24:39
can see now there was something else at
24:40
play there because
24:42
as much as we wanted it to be a success
24:44
we weren't actually telling anybody
24:45
about it we actually figured that the
24:48
program we were making
24:50
was
24:51
us telling people about what we do
24:53
but you know taking another step back
24:56
from that we needed to promote the show
24:57
we needed to promote all of that so in
25:00
effect we needed to do almost this kind
25:02
of whole push with promoting and
25:05
marketing and publicity of the podcast
25:08
which we anticipated would show people
25:09
how good we are what we do to make them
25:11
want to work with us we weren't telling
25:13
anybody about it so you know it sounds
25:14
pretty dumb on the surface
25:16
but you know think about all those times
25:17
that someone might have called you an
25:19
attention seeker or all those times that
25:21
you've seen someone on the end of a tall
25:23
poppy syndrome where they've got their
25:25
got their comeuppance for having the
25:26
audacity to have reached the pinnacle of
25:29
success and actually owned it when we
25:31
say we told no one about it is i mean we
25:33
told hugh kearns about it and then
25:35
didn't air that interview with him for
25:36
another 12 months
25:41
okay but we after we spoke to him we did
25:43
release it i have built a decent
25:46
instagram following you know and if
25:48
you're rich in instagram it's like
25:50
you're rich in monopoly money but there
25:52
is a good community of people there and
25:54
to announce the launch of our elevating
25:57
experts podcast i did a post it was one
26:00
story on my any excuse for fashion
26:02
account
26:03
at 9 00 pm at night yeah in a badly lit
26:06
car park that i filmed on the way out of
26:08
the movies um
26:11
it's like oh that's right guys i'm
26:12
running a business now
26:14
check it out you know we weren't posting
26:17
we we no okay so that point in the story
26:20
we'd started our business it was already
26:23
at that stage
26:24
i think about seven or eight months
26:26
since i'd finished up at the radio so i
26:28
did on my other instagram account have
26:30
quite a few thousand followers that were
26:32
really keen on
26:33
finding out what i was doing and i've
26:35
pretty much i've i've dog ghosted that
26:37
account
26:38
in the past two years maybe you can post
26:40
a dog ghost up on that feed i think in
26:43
two years i've post i went from posting
26:45
like every second day to posting you
26:47
know six times in the whole year so and
26:49
look you know to be fair i think there's
26:51
other stuff connected to that for you
26:53
emotionally
26:54
as well that's what we're talking yeah
26:56
there is that as well yeah so yeah i
26:58
mean with all the skills and experience
27:00
you know 20 years in commercial radio
27:03
it's really hard to see why 2021 louise
27:05
isn't backing herself you know was it
27:07
because she didn't really believe in
27:08
welcome change media enough was it
27:10
because she didn't believe in herself
27:11
enough i mean
27:13
do you want the answers on this lie
27:14
detector
27:16
[Laughter]
27:18
it's a good example of this is what i
27:21
called the hockey story
27:23
so in my first commercial radio job um
27:26
back in invaria it was town of 10 000
27:28
people so great place to be a big fish
27:31
in a small pond and you know being on
27:32
the local commercial radio that is big
27:34
fish in small pond territory absolutely
27:37
that is huge big fish in small pond
27:39
territory and i was signing up for
27:41
hockey one day uh i was just joining a
27:44
social team mixed team casual thing i
27:47
don't play anymore by the way people who
27:49
play hockey are very aggressive they
27:50
kept coming at me with the puck and the
27:53
and the what is the broken shins
27:55
that kind of thing i mean i enjoyed it
27:57
but no i don't need an injury thanks
28:00
um didn't sign up for that i just wanted
28:02
to have fun not have a broken uncle
28:05
so when i was signing up for that the
28:07
person was taking my registration and
28:08
they they were they weren't necessarily
28:10
rude but they didn't they didn't give a
28:12
they were just there doing their
28:13
job and just like chicken flick yeah
28:16
chicken flick you know he's anyway what
28:18
what's your name louise ah what do you
28:20
do louise she's filling out the form i'm
28:22
a radio announcer
28:24
you're already an answer
28:26
oh
28:26
where are you
28:27
i said i'll work for
28:29
gem fm the
28:31
commercial radio station
28:33
oh
28:34
you're louise
28:36
[Laughter]
28:38
and so this person went from sullen
28:41
just get out of my face let's get this
28:43
done to her entire persona changing when
28:46
she thought that there might be
28:48
something special about me that and i'm
28:50
projecting this on to her based on pr
28:54
experience and other experiences
28:56
that she might be the beneficiary of
28:59
and maybe in a town like invariable
29:01
where you're a big fish in a small pond
29:03
it might be notoriety instead of free
29:06
tickets to go see someone it might be a
29:07
free cd back in those days it would have
29:10
been a free cd we did still have cd
29:12
players that idea of that recognition
29:16
that known-ness that was really
29:18
intrinsically linked up with my sense of
29:20
self-worth
29:21
because i did notice as well after i
29:23
left that job in commercial radio we've
29:26
already spent 12 episodes in what i call
29:29
louise slams the media um
29:32
and this maybe this one is louise slams
29:34
the people who interact with the media
29:37
um
29:37
oh
29:38
no no no not not the listeners i mean
29:42
like like publicity for example it's a
29:45
very what can you do for me game so i
29:49
was really i suppose disheartened to see
29:51
that when i was no longer in that
29:53
position
29:54
that people who may have been my friend
29:58
in inverted commerce weren't anymore
30:01
when i was of no use to them anymore
30:03
didn't hear from them yeah
30:05
not all not all of them by the way there
30:07
are a couple there's one publicist in
30:09
particular who i think should form a
30:11
part of a story in another episode
30:13
because her invite for me to come and do
30:15
something actually helped me leave the
30:17
house for the first time in months but
30:19
that's how i had tied my value as a
30:21
person to the job that i did and why the
30:23
prospect of nobody caring what i make
30:25
now um
30:27
was rough
30:29
the non-cliff notes version of it and
30:31
look you know like there's a lot in
30:33
there to unpack and i think you know
30:35
where we're going today as well is
30:37
we've got distance from all of this
30:39
stuff now and we're actually making
30:40
choices in accordance with our own
30:42
values and what's important to us now
30:44
you know so you know years ago i
30:46
attended a seminar and the facilitator
30:48
spoke about you know anyone can do
30:50
anything they want to do you know so
30:52
it's that typical thing that kind of
30:54
people misconstrue as you know those
30:56
motivational speakers getting up and
30:58
saying you can be a billionaire but it
31:01
wasn't that what she was saying in fact
31:03
was that it all comes down to our values
31:04
and the choices that we make are based
31:06
on those and what we're prepared to do
31:08
you know some might say what we're
31:09
prepared to sacrifice in return for the
31:11
gold so
31:12
an example that she described is anyone
31:15
is capable of becoming a millionaire so
31:18
to become a millionaire it takes a
31:20
certain mindset it takes learning
31:22
certain skills it takes certain
31:23
activities and behaviors and that sort
31:25
of thing so when it came down to it you
31:28
know you've got to make the choice do i
31:29
want to do these things so i can have
31:30
that end goal
31:31
some of those skills were absolutely no
31:33
interest to her as a person so
31:35
because they didn't appeal to her sense
31:37
of what was important she didn't become
31:38
a millionaire that's just kind of the
31:40
bottom the bottom line of that i could
31:42
still be working for the government
31:44
right now as we sit here because before
31:46
i moved to darwin as you know i was in a
31:47
government job
31:48
yeah it was by those the standards of
31:50
those days it was pretty well paid even
31:52
now i think it would be pretty well paid
31:54
but i chose to leave it almost seven
31:56
years into the job for a job in
31:58
commercial radio i could have even
32:00
stayed in the government job for an
32:01
extra six months six months out of seven
32:04
years i could have stayed that extra
32:05
time and i could have cashed in pretty
32:06
write a long service but yep i decided
32:09
that taking the role on dharma was
32:10
actually going to have a much more
32:11
positive impact on my mental health at
32:13
the time so there's a theme that runs
32:15
through my life even 12 years back it
32:17
was far more important for me to get out
32:19
of
32:20
that job that i was in than to hang
32:22
around for a bit of extra cash than
32:23
passing up a you know that opportunity
32:25
of a lifetime so when we think about
32:27
success i suppose the the real question
32:29
is how are we measuring success
32:32
because the measurement of success there
32:33
wasn't the money it was the way that you
32:36
felt i think you know if i'd made all of
32:38
my choices throughout life based on
32:40
money i could potentially be quite
32:42
wealthy but geez i'd be a different
32:44
person
32:45
i'd have lots of properties i reckon and
32:48
um i'd be like the monopoly man you
32:50
would be like the monopoly man for a
32:52
start if i was making my choices based
32:54
on money i never would have done a
32:56
bachelor of arts when i left school
33:00
same that's the first thing let's say
33:02
let's do science or medicine or law
33:05
straight up but oddly enough though you
33:07
know what though
33:08
just to step in there for a sec sorry
33:11
okay i that goes back to high school you
33:13
know because in high school i remember
33:15
being very heavily encouraged towards
33:17
the subjects that would get into the
33:19
courses at university that would lead to
33:21
the money at the younger age i was
33:22
actually making those decisions because
33:24
of money but then by the time i got a
33:26
month into my science degree and
33:27
realized that it actually wasn't for me
33:29
it wasn't for me i decided to do art
33:31
instead and that was a me choice yeah
33:33
that reminds me of when i was at school
33:35
i had a huge interest in you know
33:37
science and physics in particular you
33:39
know when it got to year 11 and 12 i did
33:42
want one of the subjects that i studied
33:43
to be physics couldn't do it because i
33:45
had to make the choice between to study
33:48
physics i had to also study maths b and
33:50
math c and it took out three subjects
33:53
and i also really loved music and i
33:55
wanted to study music and i wanted to
33:57
study film and television and make
33:59
things and so there weren't enough
34:01
glasses to choose from like if i had
34:03
enough hours in the day if i if i wanted
34:06
physics i had to do three classes to go
34:08
with that um and then i didn't have room
34:10
for music and film and tv so i i chose
34:13
the arts path i chose that media path
34:15
instead science would have made me a lot
34:17
more money i suspect maybe maybe not we
34:20
know how that's been defunded of recent
34:22
years
34:24
but i get your point you know like and i
34:25
would have i might probably have done
34:27
the opposite because i chose all of
34:28
those difficult subjects and didn't
34:31
particularly enjoy them whereas i would
34:32
have loved to have done things like
34:34
music and history so kids
34:36
choose wisely follow your heart that's
34:39
what uncle andy says today just on my
34:41
pedestal just a little on my pedestal
34:42
here um
34:45
and i'm bitching about the education
34:46
system in 1998 or 97 or whenever it was
34:50
you know all those art subjects that i
34:52
did i received at that stage the grading
34:55
system was a very high achievement high
34:57
achievement credit and satisfactory and
35:00
then failed that kind of stuff i got
35:02
very high achievements in everything so
35:04
that's like your a plus plus stuff and i
35:07
know people who did take the science
35:08
path and study chemistry biology that
35:10
kind of stuff than the maths and they
35:12
literally failed their subjects and
35:14
their op was the same as mine so
35:18
the government and their
35:19
non-support of the arts because it's
35:21
essential for critical thinking and the
35:23
expression of creativity and if we had
35:25
more people making more art then we'd
35:28
have less mental health issues we would
35:30
and would probably have quite a lot
35:32
fewer social issues as well that's
35:33
louise's pets
35:35
19 but the thing okay 1997 that happened
35:38
has it changed they're still
35:41
over not funding the arts look what
35:43
happened in the pandemic completely yeah
35:46
i mean sporting gets all of the all of
35:48
the money like you get a lot of money
35:49
for sport and i once said to somebody
35:51
said you know i don't want to speak to
35:52
too ill of sport and you know but and
35:54
she said well why not they get plenty of
35:56
money and it's true it's so true because
35:59
when you look at yeah people talk about
36:01
oh you know they fund the arts they fund
36:03
the opera and they fund the
36:05
whatever
36:06
they're okay so they are a part of the
36:08
arts and they are also valid but what
36:10
we're talking about is new ideas and
36:13
we're talking about people being able to
36:14
create things in the context of the
36:16
current world so sure go off and fund
36:18
your chamber music which is lovely to
36:21
listen to i do like also yeah i do too i
36:24
also want society to move forward i
36:27
don't want it to be stuck in 1953 i
36:30
don't want things to be clawed back and
36:32
for laws to be repealed which easily
36:35
happens with a division of society that
36:37
happens in politics
36:38
all the while they're pumping more and
36:40
more money into sports and they're
36:42
anesthetizing the population this isn't
36:44
to say that people who watch sports are
36:46
dumb no there's a lot of good stuff that
36:48
comes from sports yeah yeah there is and
36:50
we speak to some sporting people through
36:52
this series so i'm not cheating on
36:54
sports at all but what i am saying is
36:56
that it's a mighty big distraction and
36:58
one that doesn't require people to think
37:00
too much beyond where's the ball and
37:03
have you ever tried to fill in a grant
37:05
to get money to make something in
37:07
creative arts those things are a
37:09
nightmare and they're designed to put
37:10
people off yeah talk about jumping
37:12
through hoops hey
37:15
i mean i think that last tube did
37:17
actually have a ring of fire around it
37:19
i'm not gonna
37:21
it did feel like i was jumping through
37:22
and getting scorched there's my analogy
37:24
for this section
37:27
but look i think it you know just to
37:29
pull ourselves back yeah because with
37:30
this has become another of louisiana
37:33
the patriarchy rants yeah totally i
37:35
mean you know like so 12 months ago you
37:38
could have signed the next routine
37:39
contracting in the job and you could
37:40
have stayed in that job that wasn't
37:42
bringing you any joy anymore just like i
37:43
could have stayed in that government job
37:45
back in 2008
37:47
we both made a choice for ourselves yeah
37:50
we could have made different choices for
37:51
ourselves we could have followed another
37:52
pathway yeah and look and sometimes we
37:54
feel like we're making a mountain of
37:56
errors you know in pursuit of an income
37:58
as new business owners which is right
38:00
out of our comfort zone
38:02
and you know derrick mcmahon has helped
38:04
us to really kind of readjust our
38:07
thinking or reframe our thinking around
38:09
all of that
38:10
human durability is the ability to go
38:12
beyond resilience to sustaining optimal
38:15
performance a baseline model for this is
38:18
i have a continuum that starts with
38:21
fragility has resilience in the middle
38:23
and durability on the other end
38:25
fragility i describe
38:27
as when we are brand new at doing
38:29
something we do it for the first time
38:31
we're very young at it we're fragile
38:33
because we're
38:34
we're new we're inexperienced we make
38:36
mistakes sometimes we break things
38:39
and if you ever have somebody starting
38:40
new with you or you have a child working
38:42
with you we kind of understand it's okay
38:44
for them to make a mistake but we're not
38:46
as generous to ourselves about the
38:48
mistakes we make but these people are
38:50
fragile now with good coaching mentoring
38:52
guidance which we all need we are able
38:54
to take people
38:56
and we're able to develop ourselves from
38:57
being fragile new beginners to resilient
39:00
performance now when we move from
39:03
fragile to resilience this is where we
39:06
go through the stages of learning how to
39:08
solve problems okay i'm new at this boss
39:11
how do i fix this problem boss what do i
39:13
do with this partner what do i do with
39:15
this you know whoever it might be we're
39:17
getting that guidance and we learn how
39:19
to solve problems and that's what
39:20
resilience is resilience is the ability
39:23
to bounce back if something happens i
39:25
know how to fix it i know how to bounce
39:27
back and we get really comfortable with
39:28
ourselves where we go it doesn't matter
39:30
what's going on if anything goes wrong
39:33
come and talk to me i know how to fix
39:34
things um i'm resilient and and it's a
39:37
very powerful place to be and it's
39:39
important to have resilience in our
39:41
personal stores but resilient isn't
39:43
where we really want to be because
39:46
resilient is always bouncing back always
39:47
having to fix problems it's waiting for
39:50
things to happen so that you can bounce
39:52
back now if you remember there was a
39:54
explosion in the port of lebanon three
39:57
thousand kilograms of chemicals exploded
39:59
and destroyed many of the houses and
40:02
killed many people the lebanese uh
40:03
government and the the media were saying
40:05
the lebanese people they are resilient
40:07
they'll be able to bounce back they'll
40:09
get over this we'll be able to rebuild
40:11
we will be fine there was one lady that
40:13
was interviewed
40:14
and she said i'm tired of being
40:17
resilient i've been resilient all my
40:18
life i've been through the wars i've
40:20
been through and now i'm going to have
40:22
to be resilient i don't want to be
40:23
resilient anymore i just want to be able
40:26
to enjoy my life and that i think is
40:28
where we want to be and that's what i
40:30
describe as durability durability is
40:32
where we know that our performance is
40:34
100 reliable everything we do we know is
40:38
going to go well everything that happens
40:40
it's predictable it's we know exactly if
40:44
this happens i'll be able to see the
40:46
signs i'll be able to fix it before it
40:47
goes wrong it's where we're really
40:49
comfortable and if i
40:50
make this analogy about these podcasts
40:53
when you first started running podcasts
40:55
your minds would have been going a
40:57
thousand miles an hour going oh my gosh
41:00
this is our first one i hope it all goes
41:01
wrong now that you're into it i mean
41:04
talking to you guys this morning it
41:05
sounds as if you don't even bother
41:07
talking about the setup oh have we done
41:08
this of course i've done this you've got
41:10
it all you're in a place now where you
41:12
come and do these podcasts and just go
41:15
excellent i know this is going to be
41:16
fine we've done this so often we know
41:18
exactly what's going to happen we know
41:20
how to manage it everything goes really
41:22
well and i call that our comfort zone
41:24
our durability we're 100 reliable this
41:27
is our comfort zone and it's important
41:29
to know where your comfort zone is and
41:31
get into your comfort zone and enjoy
41:33
your comfort zone
41:35
because once we start enjoying our
41:36
comfort zone then we'll start looking
41:38
around and going i'm really comfortable
41:40
i'm not challenged i want a new
41:42
challenge and that's when we'll take a
41:44
leap from there and we will take on a
41:46
new challenge one of the important
41:47
things about knowing where your comfort
41:49
zone is is that if you take a leap of
41:51
faith and you take on a challenge and
41:53
you crash and burn
41:54
many people burn back down to their
41:57
basics
41:58
and we all know the term if things start
42:00
going wrong let's go back to basics
42:02
well basics is the day that you were
42:04
fragile the day you started in this your
42:07
place your comfort zone you're 100
42:09
reliably reliable if you crash and burn
42:12
and you come back to your comfort zone
42:14
that's when you start getting your
42:15
confidence back
42:17
so back to elevating experts oh yeah
42:20
it's a good walk
42:22
it's been it's been a long walk um i
42:24
would say
42:26
gently it was a flop
42:28
yeah it's it's still up there the
42:30
content is great there were listeners
42:32
there were people who reached out to us
42:34
so i think there are people that we were
42:36
able to interact with based on that
42:38
series that have become a part of our
42:40
journey but
42:41
that series itself didn't net us any
42:44
clients specifically yeah it didn't hit
42:46
our values we were we were making
42:48
something in vain to try and get a
42:51
result where
42:52
we didn't consider packing it in though
42:54
no
42:55
we wanted to press on because our
42:57
initial idea when we started out before
42:59
i even said let's make a business
43:02
um it was reframe it was reframe of mind
43:04
the podcast you know this is the idea
43:06
that started the bull rolling in the
43:07
first place and you know what elevating
43:08
experts was it was once we started our
43:12
business it was us not believing in our
43:14
own ability to put our own ideas like
43:17
reframe of mind out there and have it be
43:20
successful and we thought we needed a
43:22
backup to generate income in a way that
43:25
was maybe more of that traditional model
43:27
i think we weren't emotionally invested
43:29
in it because it was just more of what
43:32
we were already living what we lived
43:35
before it was another version of what
43:36
we'd already done yeah
43:39
to be honest you know like
43:41
when we when we take except there was
43:43
nobody um so we took a good hard look at
43:45
ourselves as
43:47
one of your relatives told you to do
43:50
before we started the business in an
43:52
angry kind of way
43:53
yeah so elevating story coming up
43:58
yeah elevating experts was something we
43:59
made to try and make the money we were
44:01
basing our actions on what we felt like
44:03
we had to do to fit other people's
44:05
expectations and some of those
44:07
expectations from other people from
44:09
society that we picked up and were
44:11
living as our beliefs and you know it's
44:13
this program reframe of mind that is our
44:15
passion and
44:17
there was a sense that you know we feel
44:18
that elevating experts was the money
44:20
maker like you've said
44:22
recently for our passion project but it
44:24
was the passion project that we intended
44:26
to make work from the start this was the
44:28
program that fully aligns with our
44:29
values and always felt good to work on
44:32
compared to
44:33
days of social media content
44:36
and scheduling it up for our golden
44:38
goose that wasn't laying any eggs and it
44:40
all just started to feel
44:42
like that old workday grind
44:46
yuck but thinking back to derek's story
44:48
and the theory around that continuum
44:51
from fragility to durability at that
44:53
time with elevating experts we realized
44:55
that we actually weren't in a place of
44:57
fragility we weren't ready to pack in
44:59
the business you know we just needed to
45:01
change direction we were in a place
45:03
where we could
45:05
reassess and just try a different
45:07
approach
45:08
get back into that comfort zone for us
45:11
create that content which is where our
45:13
power comes from then
45:15
become durable and and try other things
45:18
that's the business though personally
45:21
some things were a little fragile
45:23
some things were a bit fragile yeah
45:28
um okay so for anyone who hasn't caught
45:30
up yet my journey with this mental
45:32
health podcast is after my dad died i
45:35
say in fairly glossy terms the family
45:38
dynamics changed and
45:40
was this in the 30 second recap would we
45:42
need an
45:43
amendment to the 30 second recap i don't
45:46
know maybe we need to recap for the
45:47
recap at this stage
45:50
wasn't fragile when it came to the
45:51
elevating experts flopping was
45:54
definitely fragile when i received
45:56
something in the mail from a relative
45:59
and the relative related to this one who
46:01
had told me you know in no uncertain
46:03
terms to to back off to go away that you
46:06
know if i caused the trouble
46:08
what trouble was that going to
46:09
cause anyway if i caused trouble they
46:11
would tell me exactly what my now
46:13
deceased parents grandmother really
46:15
thought of me and my lifestyle don't use
46:18
our kids as pawns don't even think of
46:20
that or all that kind of stuff that
46:23
really you hear on today tonight
46:25
or a current affair you know it's one of
46:27
those i was thinking jerry springer
46:29
actually well now jerry springer would
46:30
be like the episode where i'm sitting on
46:32
stage and joey says we've got a surprise
46:35
guest for you
46:36
and they come out with their cutlery
46:39
well cutlery
46:41
i mean okay so context context of
46:44
cutlery
46:45
so
46:46
because no one yet knows why we've been
46:48
calling this person cutlery woman for
46:49
the better part of a year that's her
46:51
nickname okay so so here's he's my story
46:55
of shame and here's my story of um
46:57
anxiety around the death of my father
47:00
and you'd think that it would be bad
47:01
enough that my father died but when my
47:03
father died he was in sydney where i
47:05
grew up i was in adelaide
47:07
i was there when he passed away and i'm
47:10
very grateful to have been with him in
47:11
that moment
47:13
but also the pandemic was just hitting
47:17
and all of those rules around funerals
47:19
we couldn't have you know x amount of
47:21
people and all that kind of stuff that
47:22
was going on with funerals my partner
47:24
couldn't come into state to support me
47:27
through the funeral and through you know
47:28
that time of initial initial grief and
47:30
loss
47:31
so you know you can imagine i wasn't
47:33
necessarily in the best of business
47:38
so my shame around this is that as his
47:41
son i had to leave other family members
47:44
to
47:45
settle the estate to tidy up the house
47:48
do all that kind of stuff related to
47:49
preparing it for sales so i felt really
47:52
bad about that you know
47:54
i can't change the fact that all of
47:55
those circumstances contributed to to
47:58
how how it was
48:00
anyhow not long after i'd left you know
48:02
a relative pops on and basically says on
48:05
social media what a great job the other
48:07
relatives are doing ah and cleaning up
48:10
the house passive aggressive passive
48:12
aggressive question comes in you know i
48:14
don't deny they were doing a great job
48:15
but it was literally a matter of
48:17
probably not even a week after i'd left
48:20
so you know i took an action to just cut
48:23
them off on social media because we
48:25
never interacted on social media anyway
48:27
so there was really nothing to be had
48:29
there i guess to shortcut the story is
48:32
that i think the flash point was really
48:34
when you know they found out that they'd
48:36
been unfriended even though we never
48:38
communicated on social media
48:41
then the thing came in about you know
48:43
you're this you're that and all that
48:45
kind of stuff so
48:46
anyway it wasn't a very nice time
48:50
pretty triggering for me to think about
48:52
it much less receive a lovely package in
48:54
the mail which consisted of a baby fork
48:57
and a baby spoon saying andrew i believe
49:00
these are yours
49:01
so and you know then the letter went on
49:03
to you know basically saying i don't
49:05
know what i've done and can't believe
49:08
that you're doing this and all that kind
49:10
of stuff so
49:11
quite guilt trippy you know in my
49:14
opinion
49:15
it is you know weaponized love saying
49:18
well you know look we're being very good
49:19
to you how come you're treating us like
49:21
this but there's a whole history
49:24
of family patterns which i keep alluding
49:26
to which you know will unfold
49:28
during the series and not to actually
49:30
condemn anybody who is actually being a
49:32
part of that because you know what i'm
49:34
going to put my hand up and say i'm not
49:36
above reproach myself
49:38
i did exactly the same sorts of things
49:40
that i'm talking about with these
49:41
patterns of behavior and that's why i'm
49:43
very intent on not actually identifying
49:45
anybody because you know i get a sense
49:47
that it's not just my family this
49:49
happens in i get a sense that it happens
49:51
in friendship circles in other families
49:54
in workplaces
49:55
i think this is a pattern of behaviors
49:58
that's endemic in our society i don't
50:00
even know whether it's a
50:03
an australian cultural thing or if it's
50:05
i don't know you know what i mean like i
50:07
can think for days about that but what
50:09
it comes back to is that at that time
50:11
when i received that letter i was really
50:13
triggered you remember you were there
50:15
yeah you were i are you that was one of
50:17
the most upset days i've seen you on the
50:19
on the team's calls you i could tell you
50:22
you got it and you read it and you tried
50:23
to play it off like it didn't matter and
50:26
then
50:27
i could just it mattered
50:29
you're like no no let's let's let's get
50:31
back to it let's get back to this thing
50:32
that we're doing and i could just
50:34
i could see it kept was eating away at
50:38
your mind and then we had to talk about
50:41
it and then we had a happy monday you
50:43
know then we had maybe that was the
50:44
first therapy monday maybe that was the
50:46
turning point where we decided to put um
50:48
our mental health at the heart of the
50:49
business because if we if we were in any
50:52
other job that we had had previously if
50:55
something like that had happened and you
50:57
know we had these self-imposed deadlines
50:58
we were trying to meet to get things
51:00
happening we would have just gone i'll
51:02
just deal with that later it doesn't it
51:04
doesn't matter it doesn't affect it's a
51:06
personal thing deal with that yourself
51:08
another time yeah yeah absolutely that
51:10
doesn't work it doesn't work you can't
51:13
just get on with it because it's here
51:15
and now and it's actually affecting you
51:16
here and now you've got to be able to
51:18
give yourself permission to sit with it
51:21
you've got to be able to give yourself
51:23
permission to
51:25
to feel those emotions you're feeling
51:27
because you know the more i tried to
51:28
push that back as you saw the more they
51:31
were going ah
51:32
and and i got wobbly and i cried and i
51:35
did all sorts of things and you know
51:37
should they actually listen to this
51:38
episode
51:39
they won't um they won't we we can block
51:42
them from that as well and then they'll
51:44
have to send another they'll have to
51:45
send us a cassette
51:47
in the mail that's right cassettes on a
51:52
reel-to-reel tape
51:54
but you know like i don't know like
51:57
honestly if they did listen to this i
51:59
they need to know that i'm not affected
52:00
by it anymore that kind of stuff i've
52:03
actually become durable is what i'm
52:05
saying because the conversation with
52:06
derrick although instrumental in me
52:08
thinking okay i need to actually find a
52:10
different way to relate to this still
52:12
because you know i thought that i'd
52:14
reframed it i thought that i'd actually
52:16
gone okay cut that off on we go
52:19
but yet it kept coming back it kept
52:22
coming back to haunt me at three o'clock
52:23
in the morning sometimes or even just
52:25
when i woke up naturally every morning
52:26
be like that would be what was leading
52:28
rent-free in my mind so these things we
52:31
do need to keep persisting with and we
52:33
need to actually sit with these emotions
52:35
because i'm not fragile now when it
52:37
comes to that i'm speaking about this
52:38
and having a bit of a laugh about
52:40
cutlery women you know i i can i i've
52:43
got the distance from it but distance
52:45
isn't enough i've basically been able to
52:48
allow myself the opportunity to process
52:50
the emotions around that and what they
52:52
mean and figure out was i reasonable
52:54
here was i unreasonable there and you
52:56
know i've done my own work there so you
52:59
were able to take a good hard look at
53:00
yourself
53:01
i took a good hard look at myself which
53:03
was the which was the command at the
53:06
time in the fragile state i was in i
53:08
retorted something and said i suggest
53:10
you do the same you know so that's kind
53:11
of the tit-for-tat kind of
53:14
arguey kind of
53:15
jerry springer type interactions that
53:19
i don't want that in my life i
53:21
don't care whether you're you know
53:23
related by blood i don't care if you are
53:25
a million dollar client i am not going
53:27
to accept that behavior so now we've
53:30
discussed that pivotal moment from
53:32
our journey together and your journey in
53:34
the last 12 months
53:36
are you feeling fred
53:39
no
53:42
not even fragile not even the long film
53:44
version not the nickname no not even
53:47
anxiety about talking about it in the
53:49
podcast anymore because
53:51
you know um
53:53
you know like i've mentioned like that
53:54
the points in between that initial
53:57
letter and now has had other things in
53:58
between and i was building up some
54:00
resilience it's almost like i was being
54:02
trained
54:04
you know here's another one how do you
54:05
feel now oh actually i feel a bit better
54:07
it didn't take me as long to bounce back
54:08
and i keep bouncing back but now i'm at
54:10
that point of durability so yeah
54:13
something's presented to me
54:15
you know it might only be a scary of
54:17
time before i bounce back there's that
54:19
you know i'm at the strong end of
54:20
resilience with that now and i'm feeling
54:23
durable excellent so
54:25
yeah you know like i've kind of reached
54:26
a comfort zone within my place in that
54:29
relationship and that i know that i'm
54:31
making the best choices for me derek
54:33
would be very happy
54:35
he would be he would be next to eric he
54:36
would be very happy with that um he did
54:39
encourage us last episode to embrace our
54:41
comfort zone
54:43
if you crash and burn and you come back
54:45
to your comfort zone that's when you
54:47
start getting your confidence back but
54:48
not enough people are comfortable with
54:51
their comfort zone that's a very bad
54:52
terminology um
54:54
that they're not
54:56
aware enough of coming back to their
54:58
comfort zone is where they get their
54:59
power from because when you're back in
55:01
that comfort zone everything's going
55:02
right um you're starting to get your
55:03
confidence back again oh yes i know i
55:05
can do this this is what i've got and so
55:08
when we start out something brand new as
55:10
fragile we then move to resilience we
55:13
actually want to move to
55:15
that 100 reliable when we take that leap
55:18
and we take on a new challenge we've
55:20
also got to understand that we will
55:21
slide back along that continuum because
55:24
when we take a new leap there's new
55:26
learnings there's new things to problem
55:28
solve so we will slide back from being
55:30
100 reliable
55:32
back to
55:33
oh my gosh i'm just resilient now and if
55:35
it's a really big challenge you make and
55:37
you crash and burn you may go back to
55:38
fragile but it's only in that one area
55:40
of your life the rest of your life is
55:42
still good lots of people go oh my gosh
55:45
i've embarrassed myself i'm an idiot my
55:47
life is destroyed people will think i'm
55:49
useless no it's one area that you've
55:51
made a mistake in you are still a good
55:53
husband or wife you are still a good
55:54
parent you're still a good brother
55:56
sister you're operating you're you're
55:58
able to manage that business well it may
56:00
be your finances you stuffed up in it's
56:02
not a reflection on your whole life and
56:04
again that's a a nuance that a lot of
56:06
people go oh that makes sense
56:09
so changing direction isn't always easy
56:11
and it doesn't mean having to throw out
56:13
everything that you've done sometimes a
56:15
change of thinking or reframing of the
56:18
situation is what's needed so this in
56:20
the journey for us is where we met
56:22
motivational speaker chris helder now we
56:24
recorded this at the beginning of the
56:26
covert crisis he had literally lost all
56:29
of his scheduled speaking engagements
56:31
overnight
56:32
in three days i had like 80
56:34
presentations that just disappeared off
56:36
my schedule it was insane
56:39
chris helder based in sydney is a
56:41
motivational speaker whose focus is on
56:44
business communication you know how you
56:45
go to those seminars and they bring in a
56:47
keynote speaker and he gears you up and
56:49
gets you ready to face the world that's
56:51
yeah that's what chris helder does
56:53
boom
56:54
that's his catchphrase boom
56:56
um yeah i think he probably has helped a
56:59
lot of people worldwide to communicate
57:01
with their clients and their customers
57:02
and their colleagues and their teams by
57:04
you know teaching them some of his
57:06
philosophies yeah i mean he's been doing
57:08
this for you know almost 20 years now
57:10
and he's had over two and a half
57:11
thousand presentations worldwide so he's
57:14
not new at the game so when we spoke to
57:16
him we wanted to chat about his
57:17
philosophy for life that he's written a
57:18
book around um useful belief which is
57:21
something that he believes can be used
57:23
for anyone dealing with adversity and
57:26
has the potential to open up
57:27
possibilities and unlock opportunities
57:29
for us
57:30
my idea of reframe is
57:33
this idea of useful belief and i suppose
57:35
as a speaker have gotten to be known for
57:37
useful belief and what's the difference
57:39
between that and as you say toxic
57:41
positivity the studies have to really
57:43
show that positive thinking you know is
57:45
a band-aid and it doesn't work in fact
57:47
the studies show when you lay in bed in
57:48
the morning and try to be positive that
57:50
you uh you're like come on chris just be
57:53
positive today you can do it by 10
57:54
o'clock when something bad happens or
57:56
something you know devastating happens
57:58
that it's very easy all of a sudden that
58:00
studies show you actually feel worse
58:01
about yourself than when you started so
58:02
you you know and you're like gosh i
58:04
can't even do positive well and i tried
58:06
to do positive and really positive
58:08
thinking and negative thinking or
58:09
emotive thinking and my idea of useful
58:12
belief and what really separates it is
58:15
is it's not emotive thinking it's
58:16
practical thinking it's what's the most
58:18
useful thing for me to believe in this
58:21
situation what's the most useful action
58:23
for me to take in this situation based
58:26
on the reality that i'm facing
58:28
so how do you get to finding that useful
58:31
belief like say that example of waking
58:32
up in the morning how when you're waking
58:35
up what are you reaching for i would say
58:37
louise the simplest way to look at it is
58:39
this if it's raining outside it's
58:41
raining outside and you walk outside and
58:43
you now are dealing with a reality of
58:45
rain
58:46
so you know we now have a choice to go
58:49
i'm going to try to be positive about
58:50
the fact that the traffic's going to be
58:51
worse and i remember trying to be
58:53
positive or or i'm going to be negative
58:55
which is emotive thinking the but the
58:57
simplest thing is it's it's you can't
58:59
say it's not raining that's called
59:00
denial we all have bad things that
59:02
happen to us and we all have realities
59:04
of our life and
59:05
uh well jesus we certainly have seen a
59:07
lot of that in the last 12 months you
59:08
can't deny that it is raining instead
59:11
you say you know what it is raining
59:13
what's my most useful belief about the
59:15
next 10 minutes
59:16
you go i love walking in the rain boom
59:19
and all of a sudden it shifts your brain
59:21
and opens you up and you know it's
59:23
useful thought you know useful action
59:25
i'm going to i'm going to put different
59:26
pair of shoes on useful belief you know
59:29
i love playing football in the rain if
59:31
you're going to have to play football in
59:32
the rain and and it is just as a very
59:35
simple shift of
59:37
of mindset that is just about
59:39
practicality
59:41
so is it as simple as just simply
59:43
changing what you're telling yourself or
59:45
is there a process that goes behind that
59:46
to land in that position the process
59:49
behind it would be i mean i suppose the
59:50
understanding that we have
59:52
i mean every one of us has a filter in
59:54
our brain and without going too deep
59:56
into it it's called the reticular
59:58
activating system and and the reticular
60:00
activating system that filter that we
60:01
all have
60:03
shows you what you see so
60:05
um
60:06
my 18 year old son is now 20 but when he
60:09
was 18 i looked to buy him a car and
60:12
a used car and somebody told me hey
60:14
check out a subaru xv
60:16
now i'd never seen a subaru xb before in
60:18
my life i didn't even know which one was
60:20
but guess what as soon as somebody
60:22
pointed out go get him like a 2013
60:24
subaru xv
60:25
do you know what's on the road
60:26
everywhere boom subaru xv stay on
60:30
everywhere and that so that's the filter
60:32
that's your particular activate system
60:34
and and it's no different if we if we
60:36
believe these are tough times then your
60:38
brain obviously goes out there and sees
60:40
the negativity it sees the frustration
60:42
it sees the angst
60:44
one of the sayings i suppose i've gotten
60:46
to you know
60:47
to be known for is you know this is the
60:49
best time in the history of the world to
60:51
dot dot dot whatever your situation is
60:54
and i know that sounds maybe to a lot of
60:56
people like what a tough sell in this
60:58
you know global pandemic time but this
61:00
is the best time in the history of the
61:01
world to have a global pandemic and as
61:03
soon as you believe that i mean it is
61:05
right i mean imagine if we had a global
61:06
pandemic 20 years ago what would you be
61:08
doing no no netflix no
61:10
phones what it what like you what would
61:12
what would you be no zoom meetings like
61:14
what would you be doing you'd be sitting
61:16
around 23 hours a day locked into your
61:18
apartment with your nokia block playing
61:20
snake right i mean it would have been
61:23
but we would have got very good at not
61:24
catching the tail
61:26
exactly right the bottom line is people
61:29
are sick and tired of being told to be
61:30
positive and because bad things do
61:33
happen bad things have happened bad
61:35
things have happened to all of us and
61:37
when people come up to you and just say
61:38
hey come on be positive about it you
61:40
really want to just punch them in the
61:42
mouth right that's not that's not the
61:43
answer
61:44
it's useful practicality
61:47
pragmatism thinking about controlling
61:49
your brain
61:50
so it's quite a leap to for someone you
61:53
know who might be listening to think
61:55
okay well
61:56
my relationship has just broken up and
61:58
you know my partner has left me with
62:00
with the kids and i no longer have
62:02
anywhere to live to
62:04
this is the best time in the world to be
62:05
doing this how do you get from point a
62:08
to point b so that that actually
62:10
effectively reframes the the experience
62:13
there's no rules on it i think you know
62:15
it was funny i was on the today show
62:16
just recently and somebody said to me
62:18
you know they asked me the question they
62:19
said well chris you know how how long
62:21
does it take to reprogram your brain and
62:23
i think even in that question andy we're
62:25
over complicating it it's it's it's
62:28
simply
62:29
you know what what's the most useful
62:30
thing that i can do today well my most
62:33
useful thing today might be to literally
62:35
get out of bed make myself breakfast and
62:36
go back to bed right i mean it doesn't
62:39
like
62:40
i'm not there's there's no rules on it
62:42
it's your life and i think that's the
62:44
big
62:45
i think that's the big thing it's it's
62:47
it's not this i just have to be positive
62:50
and go out there and you know
62:52
transform myself into some superpower
62:55
you know that is you know the reality is
62:57
that's not most people and most people
62:59
actually don't need to be transformed
63:01
most people actually just need an edge
63:03
most people just need a conscious
63:06
thought in their day to go okay hang on
63:09
what's my most useful response to what
63:10
my boss just said to me what's my most
63:12
useful situation
63:16
i'm gonna do a little circuit breaker
63:17
here and say thanks for listening to us
63:19
if you love the show let us know hit the
63:21
subscribe button on your podcast app and
63:23
show us those five-star ratings remember
63:25
to tell your friends about us and check
63:27
our patreon page for access to even more
63:29
content like extended interviews at
63:32
patreon.com forward slash reframe of
63:34
mind the more people we get talking
63:36
about mental health the more supported
63:38
we'll all be
63:41
okay so that's chris hilde and if you've
63:43
listened to episode 11. no judgment if
63:46
you haven't i mean you're familiar with
63:47
annie
63:48
we just told you that we needed
63:50
listeners so like i mean we do come on
63:52
come on listen and hit follow um but if
63:55
you've listened to episode 11 you'd be
63:57
familiar with annie harvey who is our
63:58
mindfulness expert
64:00
stopping the cycle of stress
64:02
taking care is the t
64:04
which is around your relationships and
64:07
depleting activities and that kind of
64:08
thing inhale is your mindfulness the
64:11
first l is called listen so
64:15
i talk about listening to your values
64:17
and your strengths your character
64:19
strengths
64:20
so even though you might have certain
64:22
things going in your life can you align
64:24
your goals in your daily life with your
64:26
what's important to you what what you
64:28
want to show up for in life and i didn't
64:30
i didn't know what my values were at the
64:32
age of 50. someone asked me on a
64:33
training course and i couldn't answer
64:35
the question so i went down that kind of
64:37
rabbit hole studying that and then the
64:39
last part is laughter
64:41
so annie's book the still effect
64:43
available now just check the link in the
64:46
show notes oh you do that wanky radio
64:48
voice
64:49
a lot of experience being wanky radio
64:51
announcer i've seen a lot of them around
64:53
that i can model my behavior off i'm
64:55
sure you have
64:57
um annie harvey she chatted to us about
64:59
the prospect of reframing situations
65:01
that are out of our direct control
65:03
i wonder if we can reframe any kind of
65:06
inconvenience of being with other people
65:08
in cars and situations that are out of
65:10
our control maybe getting caught in a
65:12
commute or something like that yeah so
65:14
that's um so i i wrote a book about this
65:16
because when i did my tedx talk people
65:18
said oh that's the still effects really
65:20
great is there a book about it and i was
65:22
in my 50th year saying yes to everything
65:25
so i wanted to do 50 new things but i
65:27
didn't have a bucket list so i just said
65:28
yes to everything so i said yes there's
65:30
a book
65:31
and then it was suddenly how am i going
65:32
to write this book i can't write a book
65:34
about just 10 minutes or something i've
65:36
just talked about so i was you know
65:38
discovered that a lot of my friends
65:40
didn't want to learn the formal practice
65:42
of meditation but they wanted to learn
65:44
how to be calmer that's originally how
65:46
they so i wrote this book for 30 things
65:49
that you can do in your day without
65:51
meditating so one of them going back to
65:52
the commuting is what to do at a red
65:55
traffic light so you know we might be
65:57
late for work and we might be situation
65:59
where we can't control when that light
66:01
changes or how many cars go through at
66:03
the light change so can you sit
66:06
and just really
66:07
i guess go to your senses so notice
66:10
yourself sitting in the car notice your
66:11
steering wheel look around spot some
66:13
colors
66:14
maybe notice the colors of the traffic
66:16
lights and then it changes and you move
66:18
on so it's a matter of
66:20
seconds or minutes and there are little
66:22
little check-in moments i guess in the
66:24
day that people can use
66:26
and chris helder was forced into a
66:28
position of having to test his own
66:29
theory because when covert 19 entered
66:32
our consciousness he needed to pivot his
66:34
business requiring a reframe in his
66:36
approach
66:38
so the last 12 months or so with covert
66:41
19
66:42
i mean you speak about having 200 odd
66:45
gigs in a year they all i imagine dried
66:48
up overnight
66:49
and if your main job is going out and
66:51
being able to connect with people in
66:53
person that also dried up overnight
66:57
for a tough year to be a motivational
66:59
speaker louise it's the best time in the
67:01
world to be a motivational speaker
67:03
that's what i'm talking about and we can
67:05
let's you finish yourself the question
67:07
no yeah so i i was going with so
67:11
you
67:12
must have reframed that because you
67:15
would have found that it is the best
67:16
time in the world to be a motivational
67:18
speaker so
67:19
how did you take that situation and you
67:22
know what's the steps of working through
67:24
that for you to reframe that to
67:26
this is going to work out for me
67:29
i'm really glad you asked that question
67:30
because i think it leads us to that next
67:33
piece that is just so important and that
67:35
is we are human and
67:38
you know i had actually i did a
67:39
presentation in adelaide and i literally
67:41
i remember walking into the qantas club
67:44
in adelaide and i looked up and and the
67:45
national basketball association had
67:48
canceled their season it was march 13
67:50
2020.
67:51
anyway that was just the moment i knew
67:52
because i think before that we were like
67:54
oh it might be sars it might be you know
67:56
we're starting to give each other a
67:57
little elbow here and there but but but
67:59
that was it and i knew and and i think
68:01
it was something like
68:02
in three days i had like 80
68:04
presentations that just disappeared off
68:06
my schedule it was insane
68:09
and
68:10
the reason i think it's such a great
68:11
question you asked me is i think first
68:13
of all let's let's not
68:14
not allow ourselves to be human too you
68:16
know um we have to allow ourselves to be
68:18
human i you know i felt terrible about
68:20
that i felt sad about that i felt sad
68:22
about what i was watching happen and i
68:24
mean i do joke no one wants a sad
68:26
motivational speaker i mean and uh and
68:28
and you know we're allowed to feel and
68:31
then come up with a useful belief as
68:33
part of a process and i know you know
68:35
and he asked me about process i mean we
68:37
are allowed just to go hang on what just
68:39
happened is devastating and as i said
68:42
before bad things happen to good people
68:43
and forget my situation obviously what
68:46
what happened across the world has been
68:48
devastating to so many but
68:51
i did have a couple of weeks that i
68:52
really didn't know what to do and i was
68:54
um
68:55
feeling sad about it and i do joke that
68:57
i'd people would come up to me and go
68:59
well chris why don't you go read your
69:01
own book are you feeling sad are you why
69:04
don't you go give yourself a
69:05
motivational talk right and um you know
69:08
that is it is um i think there was a lot
69:10
is the best time in the history of the
69:11
world to be a motivational speaker
69:13
because
69:14
i mean i think it forced me to really
69:15
shift as well and and obviously we
69:18
figured out how to do virtual and you
69:20
know i did 81 virtual presentations and
69:23
you know i think for the year and i you
69:25
know i had one day i talked to the
69:26
national hockey league in canada in the
69:28
morning and i came back in the afternoon
69:30
and did a conference in beijing for
69:32
prudential and i literally finished up
69:34
that afternoon talking to six real
69:36
estate agents in western sydney i think
69:38
they'd been drinking
69:39
you know and i had this incredible day
69:41
where i like went from toronto to
69:42
beijing to western sydney and you know
69:45
just it was it was actually interesting
69:47
i had someone say to me you know through
69:50
this time
69:51
chris you're going to be able to help
69:53
people
69:54
and it may not be as much fun for you
69:57
but you're going to be able to help more
69:59
people probably than ever before but who
70:02
are in real pain
70:04
it's not like just doing a conference on
70:05
the gold coast where people are in the
70:07
middle of a party right where they're
70:08
like hey we're going golfing after this
70:10
or you know yeah we get you know we've
70:13
got a masquerade party after this at
70:15
this conference you know these are a lot
70:17
of times people that are sitting in
70:18
their apartments who are lonely and sad
70:20
and and they are feeling those negative
70:23
things and they're not in a useful frame
70:25
and you know i think to really say yeah
70:28
andy this is the best time in the
70:30
history of the world to be a
70:31
motivational speaker
70:32
just purely because of the impact you
70:34
know the impact and the feedback and the
70:36
emails and the you know did i enjoy it
70:39
as much you know
70:41
i mean you know i love the stage and i
70:43
love the live audience and i love the
70:45
energy you get back from a real
70:46
situation i love all those things they
70:48
just weren't real right i mean it just
70:50
wasn't possible so if it's not possible
70:52
you put your best face on it what's the
70:54
most useful belief about the situation
70:56
but having said that um
70:58
it has been so fun the last few weeks
71:00
getting back to you know some some
71:02
really great live stuff and and that
71:04
momentum is picking up and um and the
71:07
reframe was about
71:08
really helping people through that time
71:10
and and i think that's even become a
71:13
stronger value for me
71:14
on the back of covet is it you know just
71:17
service to people i think with that's
71:20
not just as a speaker i think every
71:22
person listening to this we come into
71:24
contact with human beings and
71:26
every day whether it's dropping your kid
71:28
off at kindy let me ask you did you make
71:30
that kindy teacher's day better or worse
71:32
you know when you went and filled the
71:34
car up with petrol at the kohl's express
71:36
there's a guy back there who works in a
71:38
box all day let me ask you did you make
71:40
his day better or worse there's you know
71:42
when you came across a customer did you
71:44
make their day better or worse like you
71:46
know we all have the ability to serve
71:48
others and
71:50
and help them and and help them by
71:53
you know making their day better useful
71:55
belief this is the best time in the
71:56
history of the world to be alive
71:59
i think i'm about to blow your mind with
72:02
something here because
72:04
i've while you've been retelling this
72:06
story made some connections that i don't
72:08
think you've thought about before and
72:10
this is going to be the one this is
72:11
going to be the first time that you've
72:12
you've heard this oh wow okay you've
72:15
heard it first with me come on um
72:17
that day that you received the letter
72:19
and the gallery the baby fork and the
72:21
baby spoon and i i could see how fragile
72:24
you were and how it kept playing on you
72:27
when i said no let's because you did try
72:29
to play it off and say we won't do we
72:32
it's okay and of course that was my
72:34
thing that's that's what i have been
72:36
doing for all of my life and then i
72:39
which i have to not do the thing that
72:40
i've been doing all of my life which is
72:43
not actually wanting to find out how
72:45
someone is when i ask them because i'm
72:48
often felt like i don't have that
72:49
capacity to if you i know that if you if
72:53
i ask someone and they give me an answer
72:55
that i is going to require more effort
72:57
um i don't always think i've got the
72:59
capacity to to listen to that like
73:01
especially with some of the fragile
73:03
mental states i've been but in in this
73:05
thing i could see how much it was
73:07
affecting you and so i've put aside that
73:10
feeling for me of
73:12
if i ask him how he really is and i say
73:14
i don't think you're okay then he's
73:16
gonna
73:17
tell me
73:18
most likely what it really is and
73:21
we're both gonna have to look at these
73:22
things that are triggering to us um
73:26
and so i think i put that aside then and
73:30
called out your and said
73:32
let's talk about it a few times i think
73:34
i had to reassure you that it was okay
73:36
to talk about it and i was kind of
73:37
reassuring me too because
73:39
you know why i didn't really talk about
73:41
things like we've come a long way with
73:44
each other in the last year and it's
73:45
like we've you know we were friends
73:47
before this and we talked about things
73:49
but not to the extent that we do now i
73:51
don't actually think there's really much
73:53
in the way of
73:54
any secrets or any subject that would be
73:56
too taboo to discuss and as you started
73:59
to talk about it the thing that shifted
74:02
the way you were feeling about it was
74:05
humor
74:06
when we started to make fun of it the
74:08
thing that struck me is
74:10
how
74:11
long was this person angry that like
74:14
they didn't just send you an email how
74:16
angry was this person
74:18
as
74:19
she wrote a letter angrily found an
74:22
envelope angrily
74:24
got a stamp for it
74:26
angrily
74:28
walk to the post office
74:33
adam added some cutlery like how much
74:37
anger and resentment do you have to have
74:39
to bother with any of that over
74:43
being blocked on facebook
74:47
but when you started to laugh about it
74:49
like that demeanor that that changed for
74:51
you and i think
74:53
that here comes the mind-blowing
74:54
revelation when we've done re-frame of
74:58
mind
74:59
so far 13 episodes and some of the
75:02
feedback that we've been getting from
75:03
people a lot is we're talking about
75:05
things that sometimes are really dark
75:07
and it's funny yeah because if
75:10
we can't laugh about these worst things
75:13
that have happened
75:14
then we'll cry about them and i think
75:17
that laughter has that ability to just
75:20
defuse the laughter is definitely an
75:25
amazing release you know annie harvey
75:26
has talked to us about what a wonderful
75:30
defusing effect laughter can have you
75:32
know laughter therapy or laughter
75:34
sessions that she runs it's literally no
75:36
one's even telling the joke someone's
75:38
just standing there going
75:45
and suddenly the laughter picks up yeah
75:46
yeah and that's a release
75:48
so you know laughing and crying are both
75:50
amazing releases i'd much rather laugh
75:53
the day you go thank you for making me
75:54
laugh the day you got the cutlery here
75:56
we go here's here's the reframe of the
75:59
reframing episode the day you got the
76:01
cutlery and you were in that fragile
76:04
state
76:04
and
76:05
it hurt like a and you
76:08
chose to actually be vulnerable and
76:11
share how you were feeling with me and i
76:13
chose to be vulnerable and listen and
76:15
then we chose to diffuse that with humor
76:18
so that and i know it still bothered you
76:20
after that but so that it didn't
76:22
paralyze you for that day we chose to
76:25
actively find the most useful thing that
76:28
we could do
76:29
and reframe that then so that you could
76:32
feel a little bit better so that we
76:34
could start the journey towards getting
76:36
the distance where you can talk about
76:38
that and heal about that and you know
76:41
derek talks about this continuum of
76:43
fragility through resilience through
76:45
durability
76:47
i don't know whether there was a
76:49
particular point where i started to feel
76:51
like i was
76:52
durable with it you know because you
76:54
know there were other letters there were
76:56
other other pieces of cutlery you
76:59
haven't got a whole set yet
77:01
i haven't collected the set yet i mean
77:02
baby forks what the
77:05
you don't have kids what are you gonna
77:06
do are you sitting there eating your
77:08
potatoes on a baby fork olives
77:11
they're great for olives what are you
77:12
gonna do with a set of baby cutlery
77:16
well they are metal i suppose they're
77:17
not plastic but anyway by the bye
77:19
um i i don't know
77:21
what point i started to feel because you
77:23
know now clearly today here
77:25
i'm speaking about it quite fine i i'm
77:27
not triggered by it i had some hesitancy
77:30
earlier in making the series about
77:32
talking too much about my personal
77:34
circumstances because
77:36
we're all private people we none of us
77:38
want to expose ourselves but i think you
77:40
know in telling my story as well people
77:42
have said to me that's happening to me
77:44
or it's happened to me and you know it's
77:46
it's good not to feel alone and it is
77:48
great not to feel alone and
77:50
you're not alone
77:51
but sitting here today not being
77:54
triggered by that event is an example of
77:56
the durability in that continuum because
77:59
you know those other things that
78:00
happened in between that initial one
78:02
where i was very fragile and the other
78:04
interactions where you know i got a
78:07
little bit upset but then bounced back
78:08
pretty quickly that's resilience
78:10
right now i don't know like i'm not
78:12
asking for it but should another letter
78:14
arrive
78:16
should should a plate and a bowl arrive
78:18
to complete the set
78:20
she had to pay extra for postage to send
78:22
cutlery it's not even a large
78:24
letter right like she it was
78:27
she was so angry she had to get what a
78:29
mailing satchel but you know what wasn't
78:31
important enough to express posts
78:35
[Laughter]
78:37
but you know what durability is when the
78:39
christmas card arrived
78:42
the christmas card
78:43
well the christmas card because the
78:45
christmas card had elements of the same
78:47
patterns you know the elements was that
78:48
the one that had photos no that was
78:50
another one okay so i'm going to
78:52
paraphrase here and the card contained
78:54
something akin to don't know why you're
78:56
doing this i hope we can make the family
78:59
great again
79:01
margaret hath get it on a half a hat
79:03
yeah and you know child x
79:06
made this
79:08
for you
79:09
i suppose i mean it makes sense though
79:11
that if i've been warned not to use kids
79:13
as pawns i i guess if anyone's going to
79:16
use kids as pawns it's going to be the
79:18
people that
79:19
that brought them up i don't know but
79:21
all of the kids are adults now they can
79:22
make their own choices and i sincerely
79:25
hope that the choices they make include
79:27
busting these patterns that have been
79:29
going on for generations in our family
79:31
i'm not blaming anyone you know these
79:33
are things that we often go about with
79:35
on autopilot so when you got to
79:36
christmas with that card did you realize
79:39
you were durable then yeah i think i did
79:41
because i looked at it and i read it and
79:43
i went huh
79:44
filed it away why did i file it away and
79:46
not throw it away like i did the initial
79:47
letter i'm keeping journals and maybe
79:49
i'll publish a book one day i don't know
79:51
it's like the certificate of
79:52
authenticity for the cutlery though so
79:54
when we yeah when we make it big and we
79:56
can have like an auction somewhere you
79:58
could like a banksy piece you could buy
80:00
the original baby fork and spoon with
80:03
the christmas card attached limited
80:05
limited edition one of one may or may
80:07
not have been used by a child andy
80:09
doesn't remember because that's just the
80:11
thing though you're right it probably
80:12
wasn't even your fork i don't think it
80:14
was because i'm sure i've had a
80:17
with people from my family in the past
80:19
they've gone oh yeah well you know mum
80:21
got these when x was a kid or whatever i
80:24
don't think it was even my
80:25
cutlery
80:29
she's on the way to the post office
80:31
angrily mailing
80:32
someone else's cutlery
80:36
i mean you know as far as hobbies go
80:38
mailing random pieces of cutlery that
80:39
may or may not have ever been
80:42
owned by someone that's a really good
80:44
thing that you're in that state oh you
80:45
remember episode three understanding
80:47
depression and anxiety and we spoke
80:49
about yeah
80:51
so long ago now 2020 has been so long um
80:54
we spoke about some personally for me
80:56
some really dark stuff in there like you
80:59
know around kind of suicidal ideation
81:01
and ongoing battles with depression
81:03
um at the time something that we said
81:05
was we feel like we can talk about this
81:07
now because we got the distance from it
81:09
what you're describing there with one
81:12
day you wake up i suppose and realize
81:14
that that thing that once was a trigger
81:16
is no longer a trigger that's a similar
81:18
feeling for me in that situation you
81:20
know like for a long time after that i
81:23
was really afraid of slipping back into
81:27
this depression again because when
81:29
you're on the way up and out of it you
81:30
haven't got the distance from it you're
81:32
afraid you're going to slide back into
81:33
it i also want to add you know like as
81:35
you say like some distance has gone on
81:37
in between there i
81:39
say that it's not distance alone that
81:41
has
81:42
i i believe contributed to that that
81:44
durable state because it's linked to my
81:47
values it's linked also to my self-worth
81:50
and my feeling of self-worth and
81:52
within all of that like in those in
81:54
those fragile days when i got upset when
81:56
i received that initial letter i was
81:58
still in a state of oh look you know mum
82:00
would be so upset that i'm not talking
82:02
to blah blah blah or blah blah blah or
82:04
you know all of this kind of stuff and
82:06
the shame and feeling of the shame that
82:08
you've spoke about that's that's huge
82:11
yeah
82:11
yeah
82:12
that is
82:13
a huge emotion that puts so much
82:15
pressure on us that is you attacking you
82:18
yeah completely
82:19
so so in between then and now this this
82:23
sense of waking up one day and feeling
82:24
durable a part of that is me saying to
82:27
myself actually you don't deserve to be
82:29
treated like that
82:30
this isn't an isolated experience and
82:33
you don't need to put up with that open
82:35
bracket anymore close bracket but i
82:37
should never have had to have put up
82:38
with that what you're talking about
82:40
there of
82:41
realizing that your self-worth needed to
82:44
change you were worth more you reframed
82:47
that for yourself i did yeah but was
82:49
that reframe enough on its own did you
82:52
need to back that up with action more
82:55
work more tools instead of you just
82:57
saying the words
82:59
to actually feel it to believe it yeah
83:02
because you know i've got choices in
83:03
this i can go and approach
83:06
you know these relatives and have it out
83:09
as
83:09
people would say but also i know that
83:12
that's not going to change anything all
83:14
that's likely to achieve is a flash
83:16
point of some sort and we'll end back
83:18
exactly where we were a year ago
83:21
or it'll end up with
83:23
me
83:24
not honoring my own worth
83:26
and just pretending that none of it
83:28
really happened or none of it was really
83:30
important anyway you know there's i'm
83:31
very insistent i take responsibility for
83:33
what i do and what i say and what i've
83:35
done i need for relationships to work
83:40
that needs to happen on both sides yeah
83:42
i very much had the sense that if i was
83:45
to expose myself to that relationship
83:49
again then it was only ever going to be
83:51
more of what had been and i wasn't up
83:54
for that i'm not up for that i don't
83:56
want it i love my family but it doesn't
83:58
mean that i have to love their behavior
84:00
or put up with it if it's toxic it's the
84:03
great audacity of
84:05
saying to somebody else you're selfish
84:08
what you do is selfish you're not
84:10
thinking about me
84:12
do all these things to please me be who
84:14
i need you to be yeah to please me yeah
84:17
you're the selfish one yeah and you know
84:20
like an audacity
84:22
the audacity
84:26
you're the selfish one you're the one
84:28
who's letting us down because you can't
84:30
be
84:31
who
84:32
we want you to be
84:34
i realize that i can't control their
84:35
behavior or the way they choose to look
84:37
at a situation or life in general but i
84:40
can make a different choice for myself
84:42
it doesn't excuse them it doesn't excuse
84:44
their behaviors because that's still
84:46
unacceptable but i had to ask myself how
84:48
long do i let their behavior influence
84:50
the way i choose to live my life and
84:52
feel about myself you know like i needed
84:54
to assess the choices i was making and
84:56
take responsibility for them yeah and
84:58
derrick mcmanus spoke about this last
85:00
episode he told us that when he decided
85:02
to take up a career that put him in a
85:03
high-risk situation he had to
85:05
consciously take responsibility for
85:07
those choices he was making
85:10
i am the maker of my own destiny if if
85:13
you want to look at it that way and i
85:15
still believe that applies to me even
85:16
now in my own business of speaking my
85:19
raising my children my driving my car we
85:22
all make choices and we need to take
85:24
responsibility for those choices sure
85:26
there's a little bit of luck that plays
85:27
in lots of different things but the
85:29
majority of our life is
85:32
as a result of choices we consciously
85:34
make or try to not make because
85:37
sometimes we just try to avoid it or
85:39
live in denial but i am very aware that
85:42
it's you know my choices have put me in
85:44
circumstances where things can happen
85:46
good and bad and that's that's an
85:48
important one to remember too we make
85:50
choices that have great results but
85:52
sometimes people focus only on the
85:54
negative ones that philosophy of now
85:56
that we make our own we make our own
85:58
destiny we're the masters of our own
85:59
choices was that because of the incident
86:02
or was that something that you already
86:04
had as a life belief before that
86:06
definitely a life belief before that so
86:08
when i talk about taking responsibility
86:10
for choices i
86:12
went one step further again than what
86:14
most people do being a policeman
86:16
everybody knows that we are in
86:17
situations where we may be shot and
86:19
injured we may be shot and killed
86:20
everybody knows that but very few
86:22
coppers actually talk about i may be
86:25
shot and injured i may be shot and
86:27
killed with their partners and say if
86:29
these things happen what's our life
86:31
going to look like so i put myself in a
86:33
situation where i may be shot and
86:34
injured i may be shot and killed and so
86:36
when it did happen i'd already prepared
86:38
myself physically mentally and and
86:40
emotionally the emotionally is a very
86:42
important one but i prepared myself
86:44
physically mentally and emotionally for
86:46
the choices that i'd made and the
86:48
possible consequences of those choices
86:51
okay so when it comes to people's
86:53
openness to trying out what some people
86:55
might quickly jump to label as
86:57
we would oh no
86:59
no no no no i i have to stop you here
87:02
because yeah we have to be clear that
87:04
even though you're on chamber
87:06
music uh-huh which i which i love
87:09
we love our woo-woo we're not
87:12
we're not on
87:13
all we we have we have a spreadsheet and
87:16
it has
87:20
we have a spreadsheet where we've been
87:21
keeping our uh daily and weekly tarot
87:24
cards that we need to update soon
87:26
actually that we've pulled out for the
87:28
last you know year or so to see if we're
87:30
getting
87:31
anyway we have a spreadsheet
87:33
it's a
87:36
we have a spreadsheet for our tarik
87:41
i mean we love our woo-woo and you know
87:43
how much i love a spreadsheet so the two
87:45
things together it's just
87:48
chef's kiss channeling the king of cups
87:50
as we speak but annie harvey was able to
87:52
provide some perspective
87:54
on responses across the different
87:55
generations of people she works with
87:58
do you find that there are different
88:00
responses with the different generations
88:02
that you work with i'm thinking to a
88:03
specific example with my own dad
88:05
and when he was alive we tried to get
88:08
him to meditate
88:10
um and it was a hard no
88:12
but
88:14
when we suggested maybe he'd like to
88:16
listen to the relaxation cd which was
88:18
basically a meditation cd he was okay
88:20
absolutely it's how i mean you've got to
88:22
get them to work out what they like but
88:24
i thought that would be the case when i
88:26
first started trying it and i'd say my
88:28
youngest client is four and my oldest is
88:32
uh she's just turned 96
88:35
in brisbane i teach her online and she
88:38
she's an amazing woman she's actually a
88:40
nun so she's obviously done a lot of
88:41
praying her whole life but she really
88:43
wants to learn mindfulness and
88:45
meditation so she's taken to it really
88:48
really simply but i remember trying to
88:50
get my dad to just count to ten a few
88:52
years ago and that was hilarious
88:54
conversation he counted to ten in very
88:58
angrily with lots of anxiety so that
89:00
didn't work
89:00
[Laughter]
89:02
so yeah dependent you know there's lots
89:04
of lots of little tricks but i think
89:06
they've you know we've talked about
89:08
people coming when they're in crisis or
89:10
in burnout to client then go and find
89:12
help and i think that's why i like the
89:14
prevention side of it but we've left it
89:17
too long by then
89:18
yeah but a lot of people that would come
89:20
to my mindfulness classes are not quite
89:23
in crisis but they're not far off
89:25
they've probably been told by a
89:26
psychologist or a doctor to go and learn
89:28
and that's great that's wonderful they
89:30
all come and that age group would range
89:32
probably not
89:33
the average age i would reckon would be
89:36
in their 50s and 60s but sometimes they
89:39
have teenagers in the room and so it's
89:41
they they have a certain motivation for
89:43
being there and it's normally based
89:44
around reducing anxiety or getting
89:46
better sleep or getting on with my work
89:49
colleagues or whatever it is i wonder
89:51
with the um the stillness thing as well
89:53
whether belief changing needs to come
89:55
into this because i know with myself i
89:58
have no problems with being still until
90:00
a thought creeps in that somebody's
90:01
going to walk in and accuse me of being
90:02
lazy or somebody does walk in and give
90:04
me being lazy because there's something
90:06
else to do do we need to tackle that as
90:07
a part of this yeah definitely that's
90:10
your unbelief systems i guess and it's
90:12
you know in the end is once you've done
90:14
these it depends what you're doing in
90:15
the stillness i mean you know many
90:17
people say i can sit still for hours as
90:19
long as the tv's on or i've got a book
90:21
in my hand or whatever and that's great
90:23
but this stillness is with nothing just
90:25
with your own thoughts and emotions and
90:27
that's that's why it's so hard
90:30
chris helder has an excellent example to
90:33
illustrate a simple reframe explaining
90:36
how he changed his perspective about
90:38
loneliness and how we can change our
90:41
thinking on the matters that are
90:42
impacting us
90:44
i really like one of the examples that
90:46
you do give about how you come across
90:48
people sometimes who try to challenge
90:50
you on being lonely or challenge you on
90:52
when you're traveling that you you don't
90:54
have any company that type of thing and
90:56
your response is invariably well i like
90:59
aloneness you seem to be able to get
91:01
across that you actually it's not about
91:02
loneliness it's about enjoying your own
91:04
company is that something that you've
91:05
always felt or something that you
91:07
reframed oh i think that's something i
91:09
probably reframed i think i i realized
91:12
that i am you know travel was to where
91:14
you know i literally most years would be
91:16
over 100 nights a year in a hotel and
91:18
and getting to that reality 150 odd
91:21
flights and i'm going overseas and
91:23
and you know people would always come up
91:24
to me and say oh you must hate that
91:26
travel you know you must hate all that
91:27
travel and and um you know it's funny
91:30
how people used to just say that so
91:32
often and i'd be like no hang on i could
91:34
change it i mean i live in melbourne so
91:35
i could i could change it i could just
91:37
do melbourne gigs and there'd be no
91:38
travel
91:39
but no i'm not gonna because first of
91:41
all i love it and second of all you know