Derrick McManus was a South Australian Police officer operating in the elite Special Tasks And Rescue (STAR) Group. He held specialist skills as a sniper, diver and was trained by the military elite Special Air Services Regiment (SAS) in counter-terrorist tactics. This is a physically, mentally and emotionally demanding environment. It is an extreme, potentially overwhelming, VUCA environment in every way.
Episode 12: Who is Derrick McManus?
We’ve all used the “someone’s always got it worse off” bandaid of toxic positivity when something bad happens, and the buzz of recent times is around being resilient, but what if that paper cut was the last in a long chain of bad experiences that completely emptied our emotional bucket?
Derrick McManus had a really bad day at work once. He was shot 14 times in 5 seconds and almost died. Derrick was a South Australian Police officer operating in the elite Special Tasks And Rescue (STAR) Group. He held specialist skills as a sniper, diver and was trained by the military elite Special Air Services Regiment (SAS) in counter-terrorist tactics. His recovery and re-entry to the same team is only a part of Derrick’s story, which is one of durability and action well past the platitudes of “she’ll be right”.
In this episode, Derrick shares his story and experiences to shift our perspective on the value of resilience and durability.
You can connect with Derrick on his social media directly below:
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Reframe of Mind contains discussion around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. If you are concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice.
Some of the main crisis lines in Australia are listed on our Mental Health Crisis Resources page, including those that operate 24/7 like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.
Guests this episode:
Derrick McManus
Founder, Centre for Human Durability
Gallery
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Show Notes:
Here’s some extra things you might not know about Derrick, as well as some of the things mentioned during the episode.
Derrick McManus
Derrick’s team had been tasked to arrest a high-risk offender. He was obviously not very keen on being arrested. He fired 18 times in less than 5 seconds and hit Derrick 14 times. Derrick was then lying on the ground bleeding for 3 hours prior to his rescue.
Doctors say, “I actually don’t know how Derrick survived. He’s an amazing human being.”
Derrick had proactively prepared himself physically, mentally AND emotionally for the challenges he could expect as a result of the choices he had made. He took responsibility for his actions and for all possible consequences. This format has been developed into the model for Human Durability and forms the basis of the philosophies within the Australian Centre for Human Durability.
Check out Derrick’s website at www.derrickmcmanus.com
Watch a showreel for Derrick’s keynote speaking:
Watch an A Current Affair story about Derrick, featuring an interview with the doctor that treated him on the scene of the siege:
Human Durability is underpinned by two key principles:
- Open, honest and confronting conversations with yourself and those affected by your actions (family, team or organisation)
- Take responsibility for our decisions, actions and outcomes, both good and bad
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Transcript
Read along with the Youtube episode here:
Youtube transcript:
00:00
we acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna
00:01
nations as traditional custodians of the
00:03
land on which we work live and learn and
00:06
their continuing connection with the
00:08
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00:10
we pay our respects to them and their
00:12
elders past and present all content
00:14
related to this program is for general
00:16
informational purposes only and contains
00:18
stories and discussions around mental
00:20
health that may be disturbing to some
00:22
listeners
00:23
if you are concerned about yourself or
00:24
someone you know please seek
00:26
professional individual advice and
00:27
support more details are contained in
00:30
our show notes
00:31
if the worst case scenario happened that
00:33
i did die are we already in an emotional
00:36
position where we have our mindset that
00:39
it was conscious we know what we were
00:41
doing in fact i even had a conversation
00:43
with my wife prior to the shooting about
00:45
if i die what are you going to tell my
00:47
children about the person i am that i
00:49
knew i might be killed in this situation
00:52
but i still thought there was value in
00:53
doing it and this is about the person i
00:56
am the valued society contribution to
00:58
other people and all those sorts of
01:00
things i wanted to make sure that my
01:02
wife would pass that message on to my
01:04
children so that they knew
01:06
what i was considering that’s
01:08
international speaker and coach derek
01:10
mcmanus and this is reframe of mind
01:14
the podcast that cuts through the
01:16
platitude and gets to the core of living
01:18
authentically challenging our
01:19
assumptions and improving mental health
01:21
with the guidance of good science
01:23
philosophy and learning from other
01:25
people’s lived experiences we’re your
01:27
hosts louise poole and andy leroy
01:30
we’ve all had a bad day at work or
01:31
frozen ourselves into inaction because
01:34
of the fear something bad might happen
01:35
if we act on something but it wasn’t
01:38
until we spoke to derek mcmanus that we
01:40
truly got some perspective around the
01:41
idea of the worst that could possibly
01:43
happen oh yeah derek mcmanus’s
01:45
background is an australian police
01:47
sniper diver and counter terrorist
01:50
operative for those not familiar with
01:52
derrick’s story buckle in he’s also
01:54
widely known as the man who miraculously
01:56
survived 14 bullet wounds that he
01:59
sustained in less than five seconds yeah
02:01
on this particular day at work derek had
02:03
no alternative but to lie on the ground
02:05
for three hours waiting to be rescued
02:06
and to this day doctors don’t know how
02:08
he survived i mean commercial radio was
02:10
pretty tough for me um i don’t
02:13
i don’t recall almost bleeding uh out at
02:16
work on any of my days that i was
02:17
present though no and you know of course
02:20
not to underplay yours or anybody else’s
02:22
other experiences though it’s all
02:23
relative and this is something that
02:25
we’ll also explore with derek so derek
02:27
was a part of the star group which if
02:30
you’re from a state that’s not south
02:31
australia you might not know what that
02:33
is andy you’re the resident south
02:35
australian would you like to explain the
02:36
language to the rest of us exactly this
02:38
is kind of like one of those things
02:39
where south australians call togs
02:41
bathers or they call devon fritz that
02:44
kind of stuff so don’t get us started on
02:45
the scallops debate potato scholars
02:48
[Laughter]
02:50
yeah i’m with you there though because i
02:52
came from sydney anyway um the star
02:54
group is the special tasks and rescue
02:56
groups so every state will have their
02:58
own tactical response group these are
03:01
the people that go in when there’s quite
03:03
an acute situation you know you might
03:06
see them get called if there’s a siege
03:07
or a particularly volatile kind of
03:10
situation so that’s the level at which
03:12
derrick was working at the time so in
03:13
new south wales that would be like the
03:15
equivalent of the state protection group
03:16
or what is it in queensland the cert
03:18
group yeah cert cert yeah yeah sir sir i
03:22
didn’t know that special emergency
03:24
response team either way it sounds like
03:26
their job is really dangerous yeah i
03:29
think that you could possibly say that
03:31
you could go to work any day in that job
03:34
and maybe think that you could be saying
03:36
goodbye to people for the last time not
03:37
to be flippant about it but it’s that
03:39
kind of level of danger so the day that
03:41
derek went to work that we’re talking
03:43
about his team had been asked to arrest
03:45
a high risk offender the offender
03:47
started shooting derek was the target 14
03:50
bullets ripped into derek’s body
03:52
shattering bones severing arteries and
03:54
tearing through organs the first doctor
03:56
that actually got to derek on site
03:57
commented how you know when you first
03:59
saw him he thought he was actually
04:00
already dead in a lot of his public
04:02
speaking derek often talks about the 14
04:05
bullets the three hours on the ground
04:07
his years of rehabilitation that
04:09
followed we don’t want to take that
04:10
approach with him this time we want to
04:12
talk about something that isn’t often
04:14
talked about which is what comes next
04:17
yeah it’s very easy to get stuck in
04:18
those you know salacious details and the
04:21
you know the big flashpoint stories but
04:24
the centerpiece of derek’s story is the
04:26
stuff about his determination to survive
04:28
his ability to set goals in those
04:30
moments in those three hours while he
04:32
was on the ground building personal
04:33
belief and overcoming challenges and the
04:35
changes that come out of that
04:37
people have told me i’m very very lucky
04:39
that it wasn’t 13 times i don’t know how
04:41
the 14th makes it lucky but you know i i
04:44
get where they’re coming from is that
04:46
because it was a superstition on the
04:47
number 13 that that would have somehow
04:49
been worse that’s right that’s right yes
04:51
13 would have been worse than 14. i
04:53
don’t know how that works one of the
04:55
things that kind of really grabs me
04:57
while i was you know listening to some
04:58
of the interviews that you’ve done in
05:00
the past is you’re talking through and
05:02
you have vivid memory of the experience
05:04
itself and how your body was shutting
05:06
down and the thoughts that were running
05:08
through your mind at the time and one of
05:09
those thoughts was that you just needed
05:11
something to live for yeah absolutely as
05:14
you say there are so many aspects to to
05:16
what i talk about from the experience
05:18
and what i now have learned but one of
05:20
them is that we do need something to
05:22
fight for fighting for our own life is
05:25
one thing and it’s very important to do
05:28
that but what i was fighting for was for
05:30
my children uh i’d had an experience and
05:32
this is something that many people
05:33
wouldn’t have heard i had an experience
05:35
two months prior to my shooting where a
05:38
another policeman was killed and i might
05:40
go into those
05:42
details but another policeman was killed
05:43
i got to spend time with his two young
05:46
boys who had now been left without a
05:48
father i was already a stepfather to two
05:51
children and then within our marriage we
05:53
had two biological children and as i was
05:55
spending time with these two young boys
05:57
i thought to myself i’m a great
05:59
stepfather but it doesn’t matter how
06:01
good a stepfather is it’s never as good
06:04
as your own father and if i ever get
06:06
into a situation where i need to fight i
06:09
am going to fight to be here for my
06:11
children as long as i possibly can and
06:13
that was one of the things that ran
06:14
through my mind so i wasn’t just
06:16
fighting for me i was fighting for
06:17
something bigger than me and when we can
06:19
find out something bigger than ourselves
06:22
to fight for we actually find a lot more
06:24
power a lot more strength how much do
06:26
you feel like face might have actually
06:28
played a part in how things transpired
06:30
fate
06:31
um i’m not a fatalist not in any way
06:33
shape or form i look at this and you
06:36
know to be quite honest i’ve got a very
06:37
different perspective to what most
06:39
people think my perspective to this
06:41
overall is i went to work i got shot i
06:43
fell down i got up i got better i went
06:45
back to work and that for me is as
06:47
simple as it is now i’m able to have
06:48
that perspective because i took a very
06:50
serious look at the choices that i was
06:52
making in my life i made a choice to
06:55
become a policeman that’s a very
06:56
dangerous job i’ve been in several
06:58
situations where people have pulled guns
07:00
and pointed them in my direction and
07:02
tried to shoot us fortunately
07:04
it hadn’t happened prior to the day
07:06
where i was shot but i’d been in several
07:08
situations i knew that that job that i
07:11
was choosing to do was dangerous i then
07:13
went into what we call star group the
07:15
special operations section special tasks
07:18
and rescue star group i became a sniper
07:21
i became an underwater recovery diver
07:24
which is very dangerous in its own realm
07:26
i went away and trained with the sas and
07:29
counter terrorism so i had to take a
07:31
very close look at the choices that i
07:33
was making and the possible consequences
07:35
of them now that wasn’t fake that was
07:37
the choice i consciously made i put
07:39
myself in a situation where i may be
07:41
shot and injured i may be shot and
07:42
killed and so when it did happen i’d
07:44
already prepared myself physically
07:46
mentally i’m not and emotionally the
07:48
emotionally is a very important one but
07:50
i prepared myself physically mentally
07:52
and emotionally for the choices that i’d
07:54
made and the possible consequences of
07:56
those choices there was nothing in fate
08:00
about it at all um or actually no i
08:02
retract that just slightly the very
08:04
fortunate maybe fate was on my side was
08:08
i was hit 14 times i had a severed
08:11
artery in my left forearm and
08:14
as you might be aware if you sever an
08:17
artery you bleed profusely and die very
08:20
quickly that severed artery closed down
08:23
on both ends of the artery and didn’t
08:26
bleed doctors don’t know why it does
08:27
this it does it randomly in you know
08:30
different people but it did it for me i
08:32
had a severed artery in my right wrist
08:35
but the piece of shrapnel that severed
08:36
that artery stayed in there and blocked
08:38
it i had two bullets into my stomach i
08:41
lost 15 centimeters of large intestine
08:43
30 centimeters of small intestine but
08:45
didn’t hit a kidney didn’t hit a spleen
08:47
didn’t hit the heart didn’t hit the
08:48
lungs so i was very fortunate now people
08:51
make all that fat that i was fortunate
08:53
but you know there was that little bit
08:55
of what i call luck that part of it was
08:57
just pure love i had no control over
08:59
where those bullets hit
09:01
so derek’s story isn’t simply a story of
09:03
someone being shot and recovering it’s a
09:05
story of someone who had already
09:07
considered and prepared for their worst
09:09
case scenario as they entered a
09:10
profession where death was a real
09:12
possibility when the shooting happened
09:14
it is covered it wasn’t as bad as most
09:15
of us feel when imagining the worst and
09:18
something that could potentially have
09:19
been the worst day of someone’s life was
09:21
just another day at the office for derek
09:24
i am the maker of my own destiny if if
09:27
you want to look at it that way and i
09:29
still believe that applies to me even
09:31
now in my own business of speaking my
09:33
raising my children my driving my car
09:36
we all make choices and we need to take
09:38
responsibility for those choices sure
09:40
there’s a little bit of luck that plays
09:42
in lots of different things but the
09:44
majority of our life is as a result of
09:47
choices we consciously make or try to
09:50
not make because sometimes we just try
09:52
to avoid it or live in denial but i am
09:55
very aware that it’s you know my choices
09:58
have put me in circumstances where
09:59
things can happen good and bad and
10:02
that’s that’s an important one to
10:03
remember too we make choices that have
10:05
great results but sometimes people focus
10:08
only on the negative ones that
10:09
philosophy of now that we make our own
10:11
we make our own destiny we’re the
10:13
masters of our own choices was that
10:15
because of the incident or was that
10:17
something that you already had as a life
10:20
belief before that definitely a life
10:22
belief before that so when i talk about
10:24
taking responsibility for choices i
10:26
went one step further again than what
10:28
most people do being a policeman
10:30
everybody knows that we are in
10:32
situations where we may be shot and
10:34
injured we may be shot and killed
10:35
everybody knows that in australia we
10:37
wear guns on our hips and america or you
10:39
know policemen are shot on on a way to
10:42
regular basis but everybody’s aware but
10:44
very few coppers actually talk about i
10:47
may be shot and injured i may be shot
10:49
and killed with their partners and say
10:51
if these things happen what’s our life
10:53
going to look like so prior to the
10:55
shooting i actually sat down with my
10:56
wife and i said hey listen reality is
10:58
going into star group high risk arrest
11:00
hostage siege counter-terrorism chances
11:02
are i may be shot and injured and if i
11:05
get injured i may spend the rest of my
11:06
life in a wheelchair now if that happens
11:09
are you still willing to support me for
11:11
the rest of our lives together and you
11:13
know i i was therefore
11:16
ensuring that i had her support and it
11:18
was a conscious support of she knew what
11:20
the risks are i also had to have
11:22
conversation i may be shot and injured
11:24
but i may be shot and killed and if i
11:26
die what’s your life going to look like
11:30
and we discuss all the possibilities of
11:32
she may go on and get married again and
11:34
have more children and you know a
11:36
stepfather to look after the children
11:38
obviously that was comfortable with me
11:40
she may stay single and just look after
11:42
our children and dedicated
11:44
herself to our children that was
11:45
comfortable for me it was basically
11:47
whatever she wanted i also did give her
11:49
the option of building a little shrine
11:51
in the corner of the lounge room and
11:52
worshipping every day
11:55
apparently that one wasn’t all that
11:56
popular but you know
11:58
i threw it in there i’m just curious
11:59
derek this um
12:01
chain of logic that you obviously are
12:03
very good at doing in these critical
12:05
situations particularly is this
12:07
something that you’ve always carried or
12:08
something that came through your
12:09
training when you were training through
12:10
the police force certainly training in
12:12
the police force has helped me to hone
12:14
it uh training in star group might
12:17
maybe hone even more star group are very
12:20
very serious about contingency planning
12:22
going into training and looking at every
12:25
possible scenario what’s the worst case
12:27
scenario and how can you make the best
12:28
of it how can we overcome that the the
12:30
us
12:31
navy improvise adapt and overcome type
12:34
attitude but i think it’s something that
12:35
i’ve had inherently i didn’t know i had
12:38
it but having those conversations with
12:40
my wife prior to going into the shooting
12:42
and and lots of other things as well
12:45
even before i joined star group when i
12:47
was working on general patrols my patrol
12:50
teams would come into the office and
12:51
we’d be sitting around having coffee and
12:53
we would play what-if scenarios uh
12:55
hypotheticals and say if you get into
12:58
this scenario what might you do in that
12:59
situation what might you do in this
13:00
situation and we had you know the
13:02
ridiculous answers it wasn’t just all
13:04
serious it was just playing with the
13:06
possibilities but out of that playing
13:08
came some very serious stuff that not
13:11
only helped me but helped other people
13:12
as well so it’s just an approach that i
13:14
i seem to have always had in my life
13:17
so through his technical training derek
13:19
had got used to using calculated risk in
13:22
his life which is very different to the
13:23
typical picture of a risk taker
13:26
so how can we compare this to someone
13:28
like i guess i don’t know one of the red
13:30
bull daredevils that we see who are
13:31
jumping out of planes jumping off cliffs
13:33
that sort of thing because you describe
13:34
yourself not as a risk taker but as a
13:36
risk manager yeah the red bull guys
13:38
they’re they’re
13:43
um no every admiration for those guys
13:45
they do some amazing stuff my job was
13:47
very similar to that our fitness level
13:49
was the same as it was compared to afl
13:52
footballers type level of fitness the
13:55
jobs that we were going into were
13:57
certainly full of risk and we do a lot
13:59
more riskier stuff than anybody else
14:02
could possibly imagine
14:03
people shudder when i tell them some of
14:05
the things that i’ve done and i enjoyed
14:08
doing it at the time but as i say i see
14:10
myself not as a risk taker as much as i
14:12
do lots of risky stuff and i you know
14:14
even since the shooting i’ve jumped out
14:16
of airplanes with hell with parachutes
14:18
and all that sort of stuff so i’m still
14:19
doing risky stuff but i see myself as a
14:22
risk manager not a risk taker because i
14:25
take a look at my training my experience
14:26
my fitness my support around me the
14:29
infrastructures all those sorts of
14:31
things that give me good reason to
14:34
believe that i’ve got a better than
14:36
average a chance of outcome buyer of
14:38
success and i’ve got lots of friends who
14:40
look at high adrenaline stuff and high
14:43
risk stuff and they go oh derek that’s
14:45
right up your alley you would do that
14:47
and there are times where i look at it
14:48
and i go to know something no i wouldn’t
14:50
i i can see the risk i can see the
14:52
management but i don’t think i’d get
14:54
enough excitement or pleasure for myself
14:57
out of doing it that’s worth that risk
14:59
and so i will back away from things that
15:00
people go derek that’s right up your
15:02
alley because there’s got to be a reward
15:04
for you know for me for doing that it’s
15:07
got to be something i enjoy doing i
15:09
don’t take risks just purely for
15:11
adrenaline i’ve got it’s got to be
15:13
something that i enjoy and then i start
15:15
managing it what is my training what is
15:17
my experience you know who are the
15:18
people around me that support me so it’s
15:20
a it’s a very managed type situation the
15:23
majority of the time now having said
15:25
that i have a philosophy that the
15:27
greater the risk the greater the
15:29
planning there are still lots of my lots
15:30
of times in my life where i go ah
15:33
i don’t know about this one but let’s
15:35
have a crack let’s see how it goes and
15:37
there’s very little risk management that
15:39
goes into it but the risk overall is
15:41
very small you know
15:42
it might be that i will twist an ankle
15:45
or i might lose 20 dollars in a gambling
15:49
or a betting situation it’s not going to
15:51
destroy my life and it’s like oh well
15:53
you know even if the worst case scenario
15:55
goes it’s only going to be a hiccup the
15:57
more dangerous the situation is the more
16:00
planning the more consideration we’ve
16:01
got to give to it and that’s when risk
16:03
management really comes to the fore most
16:05
of the stuff that we manage on a
16:07
day-to-day basis we’ve done it so often
16:09
we actually go through the risk
16:10
management in our mind without even
16:12
thinking about it it runs through the
16:14
scenario of i’ve done this before last
16:16
time i did it it turned out well or last
16:18
time i did it i turned out badly but i
16:19
know why it turned out badly so i’m
16:21
going to do it differently this time
16:22
let’s go now when you go into a larger
16:25
risk you’ve got to start taking a larger
16:27
look at how you manage that and
16:30
possibility of being shot and injured
16:31
possibility of being shot and killed
16:33
that’s when i sat down and had that
16:34
discussion with my wife this is a very
16:36
serious risk the impact could be
16:39
catastrophic on my life and your life
16:41
are we both prepared to take that risk
16:43
do we have the resources to be able to
16:45
manage it um and if the worst case
16:46
scenario happened that i did die are we
16:49
already in an emotional position where
16:51
we have our mindset that it was
16:54
conscious we know what we were doing in
16:55
fact i even had a conversation with my
16:57
wife prior to the shooting about if i
17:00
die what are you going to tell my
17:02
children about the person i am that i
17:04
knew i might be out might be
17:06
killed in this situation but i still
17:09
thought there was value in doing it and
17:11
this is about the person i am the valued
17:14
society contribution to other people
17:17
and all those sorts of things i wanted
17:18
to make sure that my wife would pass
17:20
that message on to my children so that
17:23
they knew
17:24
what i was considering so it’s a very
17:26
conscious thing that i was going through
17:28
and and i don’t know where i got it from
17:30
i put it down to my parents
17:32
brought me up that way my brother’s very
17:34
similar my my sister has lots of those
17:37
skills as well and we all do very
17:39
different jobs my
17:41
my brother is a
17:44
entrepreneurial type person who’s run
17:45
his own business is now general manager
17:47
of an air conditioning company um and i
17:50
laugh riley because he says derek i
17:52
don’t care how many risks you take and
17:53
how much pain you went through when you
17:55
got shot if i get a paper cut in the
17:57
office i’m still going to whinge about
17:59
it because it damn well
18:02
so it kind of puts it in perspective and
18:04
i i completely respect that
18:07
and that puts in perspective for
18:08
everybody else as well people go oh my
18:10
gosh after hearing what you’ve been
18:12
through what i’ve been going through is
18:14
nothing no no what you are going through
18:16
is still significant for your life and
18:18
you know i’ve been shot many times and
18:21
and got through that pain
18:22
but if i twist my ankle or hurt my thumb
18:27
i still feel the pain and it still
18:29
troubles me you know 24 7 until that
18:32
pain is gone so everything has to be put
18:34
in perspective of how it’s affecting
18:36
your life at the moment i mean we can
18:37
all look at life and go in ethiopia they
18:40
are suffering so we should never ever
18:41
complain in our lives no let’s put it in
18:43
perspective it’s still difficult for you
18:45
at that time but there’s things that we
18:47
can learn from other people that have
18:48
been through these experiences and how
18:50
to manage them better and put it into
18:52
perspective i think you almost answered
18:55
my entire question just then but then
18:58
the next one that i was going to ask you
18:59
because if if you are a risk manager not
19:02
a risk taker
19:04
but you chose to go into a high risk
19:06
profession several high-risk professions
19:08
what was the drive that made you make
19:10
that was that wanting to feel like you
19:12
contribute to society that was the
19:14
bottom line for me uh
19:16
it seems to be a theme throughout my
19:17
life that i want to contribute and help
19:20
other people achieve what they want to
19:22
achieve and i have certain skill set
19:24
that allows me to do that in many
19:26
different arenas going into the police
19:27
department was certainly one of those
19:29
drives for me i remember saying i just
19:31
want to be able to get in there it’s an
19:32
opportunity to help people this is as i
19:35
a 16 17 year old once i got into the
19:37
police department i found that you know
19:39
something
19:40
as much as we help people it’s only a
19:42
touch point we get in there and we
19:45
defuse a crisis but we don’t spend long
19:47
term with these people and so there was
19:49
a reality check for me there and at one
19:51
point i started saying i’m not getting
19:53
as much out of the police department as
19:55
what i would like to and i was looking
19:57
for other jobs uh and when i came across
20:00
star group and i’ve gone to know
20:01
something i was looking outside the
20:02
police department i was looking at all
20:04
sorts of different managerial type jobs
20:05
somebody said to me why don’t you join
20:07
star group i took a look at star group
20:09
and star group was about me enjoying
20:11
myself as well as
20:13
contributing because star group you know
20:15
we have
20:16
planes we have boats we have helicopters
20:18
we have weapons we have camping we have
20:21
abseiling we go
20:22
search and rescue underwater search and
20:24
rescue uh throughout the the bush all
20:27
those sorts of things that i love we’ve
20:29
got every boy’s toy you could possibly
20:31
imagine it was absolutely sensational so
20:34
part of it was about me enjoying myself
20:36
while still being able to contribute and
20:38
that was certainly very important for me
20:39
and i i actually have forgotten the
20:42
drive of your question um oh is it is it
20:45
because i wanted to what drive what
20:46
drove you to take the risks if you are
20:49
you know so conscious of the risks we
20:51
all have a certain skill set uh and one
20:53
of my skill sets is to be able to manage
20:56
risks both physically as well as
20:58
emotionally and that’s a very clear
21:00
distinction i make because when our
21:02
emotion takes over all our training all
21:05
our experience all our knowledge goes
21:07
out the window because our emotions
21:09
driving it and when our emotions go high
21:11
our rational thinking goes low and
21:13
that’s when we go into fight and flight
21:15
that’s when we go into panic mode and if
21:16
we’re able to manage our emotions and
21:18
this is not eliminate emotions if we’re
21:20
able to manage our emotions bring our
21:23
emotion back down our rational thinking
21:25
will naturally come back up and i seem
21:27
to have a natural flair for being able
21:29
to do that so going into something like
21:31
star group i was comfortable somebody
21:33
needs to step up and do that job
21:35
somebody also needs to step up and do
21:36
accounting because i do not like
21:38
accounting so i’m looking for a good
21:40
accountant all the time everybody has
21:42
their own skill set and we need to
21:44
follow that path so long as there’s
21:46
value in it for you and it’s a
21:48
contribution to society as well um and
21:50
this was the path that i took because i
21:53
felt i had a skill set for him it’s
21:54
really interesting though like because
21:56
people don’t go through those kind of
21:58
like they don’t do that kind of planning
22:00
for worst case scenario i saw in one of
22:03
the i think it was a talk you were doing
22:05
a corporate talk that i saw on youtube
22:07
this morning one of the ones that you
22:09
said is it’s okay if i end up in a
22:11
wheelchair because then i’m going to win
22:12
a paralympian goal
22:14
and i guess that is a brilliant reframe
22:16
like was that in the plan in this
22:18
planning stage before you’ve entered
22:19
into you know high high-risk career or
22:22
was that something after when you
22:23
weren’t sure if maybe you would recover
22:26
functionality
22:28
again i’m going to tell you that i’m a
22:30
little bit different to most people
22:32
because i’d certainly spoken to my wife
22:34
about the possibility i may spend the
22:35
rest of my life in a wheelchair and if
22:37
that happened then i’m comfortable with
22:39
that because i’m making that conscious
22:41
choice blah blah blah but the the bit
22:43
about the wheelchair actually came to me
22:46
when i was lying on the ground with
22:47
bullets in my stomach and bullets in my
22:49
body and i was lying on the ground for
22:50
three hours trying to get my head around
22:53
and control my mind and my body and i
22:55
was feeling my body closing down i could
22:58
feel the blood draining from my body and
23:00
and there’s lots of build up to this
23:02
story of how i’ve managed to get myself
23:04
into a relaxed state of mind because
23:06
because of things the shooter was doing
23:08
i knew where he was at certain times and
23:12
when i knew where he was and he wasn’t a
23:13
threat to me i was able to have thoughts
23:15
just that little bit outside the square
23:18
and as i was lying on the ground i knew
23:19
where he was he was in the roof of the
23:21
house he wasn’t a threat to me i had
23:22
everything sort of calmed down and i
23:24
started to look at what the future might
23:26
look for me and again i thought i may
23:28
spend the rest of my life in a
23:29
wheelchair and i thought myself well if
23:30
i spend the rest of my life in a
23:31
wheelchair it’s not going to be the
23:32
exciting life that i have at the moment
23:34
jumping in and out of helicopters flying
23:36
here and there climbing cliffs meeting
23:38
people all this sort of stuff and i
23:40
thought how can i make my life
23:41
interesting and i thought well i already
23:43
played basketball so if i’ve already
23:44
played basketball and i put that
23:46
together with wheelchair i may be able
23:47
to
23:48
play wheelchair basketball and that
23:50
wasn’t too bad i thought that’s
23:51
something that will be of interest now
23:53
this is while i’m on the ground now
23:54
remember
23:56
i was lying there for three hours the
23:57
shooter was shooting almost continuously
24:00
while i’m lying on the ground for three
24:02
hours and these are the thoughts that
24:03
are running through my head because i
24:05
had everything in control
24:07
everything that i could possibly do for
24:09
my body i had it all in control so i
24:11
started looking at that future and i
24:13
thought wheelchair basketball this is
24:14
not going to be a bad option and then i
24:16
started thinking i may be able to make
24:18
the paralympic team and then i started
24:20
thinking if i make the paralympic team i
24:22
can add a little bit to what those guys
24:24
already are brilliant at we may be able
24:27
to make the paralympic finals i may be
24:29
able to get a gold medal as a result of
24:30
getting shot now as you say that’s a
24:32
kind of reframe because i wasn’t just
24:34
looking at the worst case scenario i was
24:36
going what other options are available
24:38
to me i made the choice to put myself in
24:40
this situation the consequences i
24:42
thought might happen have happened it’s
24:44
now up to me to make my future as good
24:47
as it possibly could be and i was
24:48
already doing that while i was on the
24:50
ground the blood was draining from my
24:52
body and the blood supply in my body got
24:54
so low that even my vision closed down
24:57
because there wasn’t enough blood going
24:58
to my brain to keep my vision going and
25:00
i saw this absolute pristine white it
25:02
was absolute pristine white that many
25:05
people have spoken about um you know
25:07
being that end of life and even at that
25:09
point i thought to myself if i get out
25:11
of this alive and it wasn’t if it wasn’t
25:13
i’m definitely going to fight and i’m
25:15
definitely going to make it it was if i
25:16
do
25:18
i may end up with brain damage i may end
25:20
up with some sort of damage to the body
25:22
because of lack of oxygen
25:24
but it was always looking at what will
25:26
it be like in the future i knew the
25:28
possible possibility that it may end but
25:30
i always had that look at the future as
25:32
well and that’s what i was fighting for
25:34
and it was my kids that gave me the
25:36
focus and determination to keep fighting
25:39
as much as i possibly could something
25:41
i’m really interested in based on what
25:42
you said is when
25:44
you were in those three hours and then
25:46
you saw that white light what else
25:47
happened is there more to that well
25:49
there’s a great lot of depth to
25:52
everything that was happening on the
25:53
ground until lots of stories about what
25:55
what i thought what i was going through
25:58
but at the time that uh my vision closed
26:01
down and i saw the white light it did
26:03
run through my mind is this what people
26:05
talk about is this the white light of
26:07
god and i’m not a religious person but
26:09
it ran through my mind
26:11
is this what they’re talking about is
26:13
this the white light of god but the
26:15
dominant thought for me was about my
26:17
children and when i saw that white light
26:19
i started fighting even harder than i
26:21
had before it wasn’t just
26:23
lying on my back trying to control my
26:25
mind and body i started moving my body
26:27
just to give myself confidence i had
26:29
something left and i wasn’t moving a lot
26:31
but it was enough to go yes i’ve still
26:32
got something i started speaking out
26:34
loud to myself and consciously out loud
26:37
saying derek don’t give up derek keep on
26:40
fighting now i talk about
26:43
looking for best case scenarios and
26:45
worst case scenarios as my vision was
26:47
closing down within about 15 seconds to
26:50
two minutes because time frame isn’t
26:52
real good in that period as my vision
26:55
was closing down there were two rifle
26:57
shots from outside the house i could
26:59
still hear the shooter inside the house
27:01
and when i heard those two rifle shots
27:03
it was absolute confirmation for me that
27:07
my mates from star group were on their
27:08
way to get me and things were going to
27:10
be all right i believe there was a dump
27:12
of adrenaline into my body
27:14
endorphins and whatever else from the
27:16
brain because of that
27:17
belief that there was something
27:19
optimistic that was going to happen i
27:21
had that sense of optimism something was
27:23
going to happen and my vision snapped
27:24
back up to absolutely perfect and i was
27:26
passing in and out of consciousness for
27:29
the next 15 minutes before they got to
27:31
me but it’s that sense of optimism that
27:33
dump of adrenaline there is still
27:35
something possible
27:38
that’s going to come out of this you
27:39
know something good that’s going to
27:41
possibly come out of this
27:42
that went through my mind at that time
27:44
but i
27:45
as much as i knew that this was the end
27:47
of life
27:49
vision that i was having that white
27:51
light i still was never going to give
27:53
into it
27:54
i kept on fighting and and if i had died
27:57
i would have been quite comfortable that
27:58
you know i’d made that choice and it’s
28:00
something that was happening i wasn’t
28:01
scared of death per se i was very
28:03
comfortable that i might die but i
28:05
wasn’t going to give into it and i just
28:06
kept on fighting with every little bit
28:09
that i had unfortunately it did turn out
28:12
well
28:13
it’d be fair to expect derek to be
28:15
grappling with ptsd after his new death
28:17
experience but in the end it was
28:18
something quite different that impacted
28:20
him that he hadn’t even figured into his
28:22
planning
28:23
i was interested to to read along the
28:25
way that your response to the concept of
28:28
ptsd that um you’ve said that you didn’t
28:31
actually have any ptsd related directly
28:34
to the experience of being shot and
28:36
almost dying but it was more around
28:38
other people’s responses to that can you
28:40
talk a bit about that yeah so i
28:42
at the time of being shot i was already
28:44
having light-hearted conversations and
28:46
jokes with myself about you know the
28:49
shooting itself and about what might
28:50
happen afterwards um and and very happy
28:53
to elaborate on what those you know
28:54
light-hearted conversations were and
28:56
that was as the bullets were hitting me
28:59
right
29:00
i was already have able to have those
29:01
conversations i think that’s because i
29:03
was well prepared beforehand
29:05
physically mentally and emotionally so
29:07
that when i got into the situation i
29:09
knew exactly what to do and i already
29:10
had an anticipation of what it might be
29:12
like afterwards and when i was in
29:14
hospital going through my uh recovery
29:16
about five days after the shooting i
29:18
threw my hand in the air and said get me
29:20
a psych i want to talk to a psych now
29:22
you’ve got to remember this is 27 years
29:24
ago and males and
29:27
psychologists therapists
29:30
uh it wasn’t a natural fit for most
29:33
people but i was very comfortable with
29:34
it and when i threw my hand in the air
29:36
27 years ago in this testosterone in
29:40
embedded environment where people are so
29:43
tough they would never talk to it and
29:44
i’ve gone excuse me guys i’d like to
29:46
talk to someone and get some therapy
29:49
you can imagine what the response was
29:50
like but it was one of the most powerful
29:52
things i could do i went to one of the
29:54
best trauma sites in australia dr sandy
29:57
mcfarland and we had about a three hour
29:59
meeting and he picked my brain about
30:01
what a howard prepared what it felt like
30:03
when i was in in the shooting what i’m
30:05
anticipating going through now i picked
30:07
his brain about how do people deal with
30:10
these things and manage them well how do
30:12
they manage them badly what’s the
30:13
difference at the end of that meeting he
30:15
said derek you can psychologically go
30:18
back to work tomorrow cleared go back to
30:20
work tomorrow physically i couldn’t do
30:21
it for two and a half years but this was
30:24
three months after the shooting
30:25
psychologically cleared me to go back to
30:26
work the next day and never needed to
30:29
come back and see him again and this is
30:31
a lot of where i talk about human
30:33
durability rather than resilience i talk
30:35
about durability this is where that
30:37
where a lot of that comes from because i
30:39
had prepared myself prior to it so that
30:42
when i experienced it i already had an
30:44
anticipation of what i was going to go
30:45
through had an anticipation of what it
30:47
would be like afterwards and because i
30:50
prepared myself so well i believe i
30:52
didn’t experience the post-traumatic
30:54
stress afterwards i’d already dealt with
30:56
it beforehand if this happens i know
30:58
what i’m going to manage i know what i
31:00
need to manage this is what i’m going to
31:02
experience i’ve got the skills to to be
31:04
able to manage that bang let’s go and
31:07
take the risk and and manage the risks
31:09
i’ve never actually experienced ptsd in
31:12
relation to the shooting my
31:15
management and i’m trying to be
31:17
very politically careful here and how i
31:19
phrase this
31:20
some of the managers at work didn’t
31:22
manage me returning to work as well as
31:24
what i would have liked they were
31:26
putting up roadblocks like i’ve been
31:28
cleared by the psychiatrist a couple of
31:30
times because i did go back for review
31:32
and just check in to make sure
31:34
everything was okay and he again cleared
31:36
me i’d also been cleared by occupational
31:40
therapists nurses
31:42
and doctors and and all sorts of people
31:44
physically to go back to work and
31:46
despite all that there were still people
31:48
who couldn’t understand somebody’s been
31:50
shot 14 times they’ve been through all
31:52
that trauma they can’t come back into
31:54
star group and be in star group again it
31:56
didn’t make sense to them so they were
31:58
putting up roadblocks but i didn’t see
32:00
that they were putting up roadblocks i
32:01
just couldn’t understand why they
32:03
wouldn’t let me pass the tests they gave
32:06
me tests they said derek we want you to
32:07
pass this test if you can do this
32:09
physically you can come back in
32:11
and when i did that and jumped through
32:13
the hoops and got over the hurdles they
32:16
said all right well well that was just a
32:18
trial the real test is this one and then
32:20
when i pass that uh well actually what
32:23
we really need you to do and it just got
32:25
harder and harder now around the same
32:27
time i’d also separated from my wife we
32:30
were going through divorce i didn’t have
32:32
24 7 access to the children that kept me
32:36
alive during that shooting my social
32:38
circles were you know dismantled because
32:40
you know when you go through divorce all
32:42
those things sort of get a disconnect
32:44
before you get settled again
32:46
i wasn’t sleeping well i wasn’t eating
32:48
well and then the crux of it was that my
32:50
dog died
32:52
and that broke me down in tears that
32:54
that just destroyed me and uh and i
32:56
started realizing that my life wasn’t as
33:00
solid as what i would have liked and i
33:03
didn’t realize i was going through a
33:04
depression all i knew was i didn’t have
33:06
the energy i didn’t have the enthusiasm
33:08
and i did the analysis for myself and
33:10
i’ve gone ah but i’m not eating well so
33:12
i must be missing some vitamins so i’m
33:14
just going to go along to the doctor and
33:15
find out what pill i need to take to
33:17
boost up my vitamins uh and he gave me a
33:20
questionnaire for anxiety depression and
33:22
ptsd and i remember thinking in my mind
33:25
mate i’ve been through the shooting gosh
33:27
and if i get through the shooting
33:28
without any stress nothing’s going to
33:30
stress me uh and he gave me the test i
33:32
filled it in you know completely
33:34
transparently obviously and he said
33:35
derek you’ve got mild depression and
33:37
you’ve got mild ptsd i remember sitting
33:39
there and god damn
33:41
geez
33:42
and then instantly said okay how do we
33:44
manage this
33:46
and it was that acceptance i think that
33:48
was one of the critical turning points
33:50
for me because i’ve had the discussion
33:52
with the the psychiatrist before i may
33:54
get depression i may get flashbacks i
33:56
may get nightmares i may have traumas
33:58
when i hear sounds watch movies this is
34:00
all a reality that could happen and if
34:02
it does these are the things i’ll do to
34:05
manage it the doctor saying that you’ve
34:06
got depression and ptsd that was a
34:08
reality check for me yes i now recognize
34:11
it one of the things that happens is
34:12
when we get into that depression ptsd we
34:14
are so overwhelmed our emotions are high
34:17
but in a low way our emotions aren’t
34:20
working properly we are being sucked
34:23
down into this vortex where we are
34:26
overwhelmed by the slightest little
34:27
thing our rational thinking is not
34:29
working well we’re not able to
34:31
logically process information and so we
34:34
just get overwhelmed and kind of give up
34:36
and that’s where i was i was just giving
34:38
up but when i got to the doctor and he
34:40
said derek this is the reason you don’t
34:42
have energy it was like bang ah i know
34:45
what to do now took every bit of advice
34:47
the doctor told me now i’ve got to
34:49
stress it was mild depression mild ptsd
34:53
did everything the doctor told me to do
34:54
came back a month later for a checkup
34:56
and he said derek it has moved on it’s
34:59
passed you’ve recovered you can go back
35:00
to work and do everything again normally
35:02
and i’ve never looked back i notice the
35:04
highs in my life but i also notice the
35:06
lows and the lows are when i’m heading
35:08
towards being depressed or just sad and
35:12
i call them depressive moments and we
35:13
all have them everybody has depressive
35:15
moments where we’re sad we’re upset
35:17
we’re we’re mad about something
35:20
if we manage it well we can get back on
35:21
track and that’s what i do now i take
35:23
particular notice of when my mood is
35:26
affecting my behaviors and my enjoyment
35:28
of life and i said to myself right what
35:30
do i need to do to get back on track and
35:32
i don’t castigate myself for it i don’t
35:34
get upset with the fact that i’ve got
35:35
into a low mood because that’s natural
35:37
we all do but it’s about being having a
35:40
conscious system for getting back on
35:42
track it’s interesting when you said
35:44
that you know the death of your dog is
35:46
the thing that pushed you over the edge
35:47
on that because
35:48
it’s very personal to me because that’s
35:50
exactly the same thing that i’ve
35:52
experienced with things you know you can
35:54
have a pylon of
35:55
um after after and it’s
35:58
okay but then particularly when it comes
36:01
to i think
36:02
you know when an animal passes away
36:05
that’s the thing that
36:07
it’s the thing i can’t deal with on top
36:08
of
36:09
all the other things
36:11
which what i’m getting at is you know
36:13
pain is pain grief is grief regardless
36:15
of what it’s about so this kind of with
36:18
your um
36:19
was it your brother and the paper cut
36:21
yes yes so is that your experience that
36:24
it’s so hard when
36:26
everyone should think it’s the other
36:28
thing but grief and pain they’re all the
36:31
same regardless of whatever it is that
36:33
you’re talking about i think
36:36
you know the death of a pet a loved pet
36:38
is
36:39
very similar to the death of a child
36:42
it’s someone you love a death of a child
36:43
death of a parent death of a you know
36:45
partner
36:47
it’s someone you love
36:48
we should be well prepared for it that
36:51
we know that you know dog’s life is only
36:53
13 15 18 years at the most so we know
36:56
we’re going to have a couple of pets in
36:58
our lives but when they pass it’s it’s
37:00
still
37:01
sore it’s still raw i think the reason
37:04
that the
37:05
death of the dog tipped me over the edge
37:07
at that time because you know
37:10
we’ve had other pets in in my life and
37:12
they have passed as well it didn’t tip
37:14
me over the edge into depression but i’m
37:16
sure you’ve heard the analogy of
37:18
our ability to manage stress is like
37:20
having a bucket i look at the bucket in
37:22
a slightly different way if your bucket
37:24
only has a little bit in the bottom the
37:27
rest of that bucket the the nine tenths
37:29
of the rest of that bucket is our
37:31
processing space to be able to manage
37:33
emotions thoughts feelings challenges
37:36
but if we start throwing more and more
37:38
in the bucket so i had my bosses at work
37:40
giving me a hard time and making it hard
37:43
for me i then started to withdraw from
37:45
from work and not interacting with the
37:47
other guys my social circles have been
37:49
decimated i’d separated from my wife i
37:52
didn’t have access to my children all
37:53
these things are starting to fill that
37:55
bucket up and the amount of processing
37:57
space at the top is getting less and
37:59
less and less and that’s when people
38:01
talk about the straw that broke the
38:02
camel’s back was something so small you
38:05
know when people are joking at work and
38:07
then they’ll make a joke and someone
38:09
will just snap and they go oh my gosh
38:10
what happened you know normally it takes
38:12
that well unfortunately the bucket for
38:14
that person has got so full that that
38:16
one little joke that they normally take
38:18
so well has just been the straw that
38:20
breaks their back and they snap and they
38:22
bite and they they get upset with you
38:24
and they’ll come back afterwards and
38:25
apologize but it’s they don’t have the
38:27
processing space because of lots of
38:29
other maybe little things that are
38:31
happening in their life that nobody else
38:33
is aware of part of it is just accepting
38:35
i’ve got lots of things in my plate i
38:37
know my processing space is very very
38:40
small when it gets to this point what do
38:42
i do how do i manage myself and this is
38:44
when i talk about high performance
38:46
people in high performance mental health
38:48
and one of the most important things
38:50
about being high performance is to know
38:52
that when your bucket is getting full
38:54
you have strategies tools or things that
38:57
you can do that distress you now lots of
39:00
people in business will go you know i’ve
39:02
got to the the level of being a high
39:04
performer i’ve got to stay there i can’t
39:06
take time off if i take a holiday i’m
39:07
still going to be working during my
39:08
holiday but we need to be able to get
39:11
away from work we need to be able to
39:12
spend time with our family spend time
39:14
with our children going and getting a
39:15
massage and doing the hobbies that we
39:18
love doing we’ve got to continue those
39:20
things because they take you completely
39:22
outside of the thoughts of work and
39:24
stress and all the rest of it doesn’t
39:25
mean that they’re not still there but it
39:27
just means that your mind is not focused
39:29
on them and you’re actually focusing in
39:31
an area where you enjoy and you get all
39:34
those endorphins and all those good
39:36
chemicals that feed the brain and
39:38
replenish the brain so that when you
39:39
come back to deal with that stress again
39:41
you’ve actually got more energy you’re
39:43
more relaxed your mind is more open
39:45
you’ve got more space at the top of the
39:47
bucket now for processing but we’ve got
39:49
to have a conscious way of going about
39:51
that we do it naturally when we’re
39:53
younger and when there’s not so much on
39:54
our plate but as we get older we seem to
39:57
be more focused on making sure that
39:59
we’re doing our job well rather than
40:01
managing our overall life and and
40:03
enjoying all of it and that’s a very
40:05
broad brush statement not everybody does
40:07
that there are many people who do it
40:08
very very well but sometimes those
40:10
people who do go down with anxiety
40:12
stress depression burnout and sometimes
40:15
worse than that obviously that seems to
40:17
be one of the common factors for me
40:20
so it’s interesting andy isn’t it the
40:21
parallel that i think we’re starting to
40:23
see here between derek’s recovery
40:25
experience and that of dr dinesh
40:27
palapana who we spoke to in episode two
40:29
yeah dinesh um spoke quite candidly
40:32
about how when he was recovering after
40:34
his accident from which she became a
40:35
quadriplegic that it was other people’s
40:38
opinions that were a major obstacle in
40:41
his recovery process yeah not his own
40:44
proving again that we are our own best
40:46
authority on how far we can push
40:48
ourselves yeah there’s a lot of buzz now
40:50
around the concept of resilience but
40:52
derek makes an important distinction i
40:54
think and he opts for a different model
40:57
we hear a lot these days about the term
41:00
resilience particularly after what we’ve
41:02
all been through worldwide with a
41:03
pandemic but you made a distinction
41:05
earlier about between resilience and
41:08
durability would you mind just letting
41:10
us elaborate on that yeah just elaborate
41:11
on what you see is the difference so as
41:14
i said i talk these days i talk about
41:15
human durability and human durability is
41:17
the ability to go beyond resilience to
41:20
sustaining optimal performance a
41:23
baseline based my model for this is i
41:25
have a continuum that starts with
41:28
fragility has resilience in the middle
41:30
and durability on the other end
41:32
fragility i describe as when we are
41:35
brand new at doing something we do it
41:37
for the first time we’re very young at
41:39
it we’re fragile because we’re
41:41
we’re new we’re inexperienced we make
41:43
mistakes sometimes we break things and
41:46
if you ever have somebody starting new
41:47
with you or you have a child working
41:49
with you we kind of understand it’s okay
41:51
for them to make a mistake but we’re not
41:53
as generous to ourselves about the
41:55
mistakes we make but these people are
41:57
fragile now with good coaching mentoring
41:59
guidance which we all need we are able
42:01
to take people
42:03
and we’re able to develop ourselves from
42:04
being fragile new beginners to resilient
42:07
performers now when we move from fragile
42:10
to resilience this is where we go
42:13
through the stages of learning how to
42:15
solve problems okay i’m new at this
42:18
boss how do i fix this problem boss what
42:20
do i do with this partner what do i do
42:22
with this you know whoever it might be
42:24
we’re getting that guidance and we learn
42:26
how to solve problems and that’s what
42:27
resilience is resilience is the ability
42:30
to bounce back if something happens i
42:32
know how to fix it i know how to bounce
42:33
back and we get really comfortable with
42:35
ourselves where we go doesn’t matter
42:37
what’s going on if anything goes wrong
42:40
come and talk to me i know how to fix
42:41
things
42:42
i’m resilient and and it’s a very
42:44
powerful big place to be and it’s
42:46
important to have resilience in our
42:48
personal stores but resilient isn’t
42:50
where we really want to be because
42:52
resilient is always bouncing back always
42:54
having to fix problems it’s waiting for
42:57
things to happen so that you can bounce
42:59
back now if you remember there was a
43:01
explosion in the port of lebanon three
43:04
thousand kilograms of chemicals exploded
43:06
and destroyed many of the houses and
43:08
killed many people the lebanese
43:10
government and the media were saying the
43:13
lebanese people they are resilient
43:14
they’ll be able to bounce back they’ll
43:16
get over this we’ll be able to rebuild
43:18
we will be fine there was one lady that
43:20
was interviewed um and she said i’m
43:22
tired of being resilient i’ve been
43:25
resilient all my life i’ve been through
43:26
the wars i’ve been through and now i’m
43:28
going to have to be resilient i don’t
43:30
want to be resilient anymore i just want
43:32
to be able to enjoy my life and that i
43:35
think is where we want to be and that’s
43:36
what i describe as durability durability
43:39
is where we know that our performance is
43:41
100 reliable everything we do we know is
43:45
going to go well everything that happens
43:47
it’s predictable it’s we know exactly if
43:51
this happens i’ll be able to see the
43:53
signs i’ll be able to fix it before it
43:54
goes wrong it’s where we’re really
43:56
comfortable and if i
43:57
make this analogy about these podcasts
44:00
when you first started running podcasts
44:02
your minds would have been going a
44:04
thousand miles an hour going oh my gosh
44:07
this is our first one i hope it all goes
44:08
wrong now that you’re into it i mean
44:11
talking to you guys this morning it
44:12
sounds as if you don’t even bother
44:14
talking about the setup oh have we done
44:15
this of course i’ve done this you’ve got
44:17
it all you’re in a place now where you
44:19
come and do these podcasts and just go
44:22
excellent i know this is going to be
44:23
fine we’ve done this so often we know
44:25
exactly what’s
44:26
going to happen we know how to manage it
44:28
everything goes really well and i call
44:30
that our comfort zone our durability
44:32
we’re 100 reliable this is our comfort
44:35
zone and it’s important to know where
44:37
your comfort zone is and get into your
44:38
comfort zone and enjoy your comfort zone
44:42
because once we start enjoying our
44:43
comfort zone then we’ll start looking
44:45
around and going i’m really comfortable
44:47
i’m not challenged i want a new
44:49
challenge and that’s when we’ll take a
44:51
leap from there and we will take on a
44:53
new challenge one of the important
44:54
things about knowing where your comfort
44:56
zone is is that if you take a leap of
44:58
faith and you take on a challenge and
45:00
you crash and burn
45:02
many people burn back down to their
45:04
basics
45:05
and we all know the term you know if
45:07
things start going wrong let’s go back
45:08
to basics well basics is the day that
45:10
you were fragile the day you started in
45:13
this your place your comfort zone you’re
45:15
100 reliably
45:17
reliable if you crash and burn and you
45:19
come back to your comfort zone that’s
45:22
when you start getting your confidence
45:23
back but not enough people are
45:25
comfortable with their comfort zone
45:27
that’s a very bad terminology
45:30
they’re not
45:31
aware enough of coming back to their
45:33
comfort zone is where they get their
45:34
power from because when you’re back in
45:36
that comfort zone everything’s going
45:37
right um you’re starting to get your
45:39
confidence back again oh yes i know i
45:41
can do this this is what i’ve got um and
45:43
so when we start out something brand new
45:45
as fragile
45:46
we then move to resilience we actually
45:48
want to move to
45:50
that 100 reliable when we take that leap
45:53
and we take on a new challenge we’ve
45:55
also got to understand that we will
45:57
slide back along that continuum because
45:59
when we take a new leap there’s new
46:01
learnings there’s new things to problem
46:03
solve so we will slide back from being
46:05
100 reliable
46:07
back to
46:08
oh my gosh i’m just resilient now and if
46:11
it’s a really big challenge you make and
46:12
you crash and burn you may go back to
46:14
fragile but it’s only in that one area
46:16
of your life the rest of your life is
46:18
still good lots of people go oh my gosh
46:20
i’ve embarrassed myself i’m an idiot my
46:22
life is destroyed people will think i’m
46:24
useless no it’s one area that you’ve
46:26
made a mistake in you are still a good
46:28
husband or wife you are still a good
46:30
parent you’re still a good brother
46:31
sister you’re operating you’re you’re
46:33
able to manage that business well it may
46:35
be your finances you’re stuffed up in
46:37
it’s not a reflection on your whole life
46:39
and again that’s a a nuance that a lot
46:42
of people go oh that makes sense the
46:43
other thing that when i talk about you
46:46
slide back along the continuum from
46:49
being 100 reliable to now being
46:52
resilient and having to learn some new
46:54
things
46:55
i was doing some work with some r double
46:57
af pilots and one of the pilots said to
46:59
me really does that happen to everybody
47:02
i’ve gone yes that’s a very natural
47:03
process everybody goes through it
47:06
he said oh thank goodness for that i
47:08
thought it was just me
47:11
and that is a problem we’ve got we get
47:12
to that 100 reliable and we think
47:14
everybody sees me as this i can’t change
47:16
i can’t be vulnerable i can’t see that
47:19
i can’t let people see that i make a
47:20
mistake otherwise my reputation is going
47:23
to be destroyed but i believe it’s the
47:24
stronger person that’s able to go i’m
47:26
learning something new here talk me
47:28
through this give me your experience
47:30
give me your training your guidance your
47:32
support your mentoring and then you will
47:35
get back to being that 100 reliable and
47:37
into your comfort zone a lot faster than
47:39
just trying to fight it on your own but
47:41
it is that everybody goes through it and
47:43
as i work with the rwaf pilots but i
47:45
also work with kids in schools because
47:47
as i say challenges are challenges you
47:50
know when they come children sometimes
47:52
come home to their parents and say oh
47:54
so-and-so stole my book and it destroyed
47:55
me and we sort of laughed ourselves oh
47:57
my gosh that’s so cute it’s so small
48:00
it’ll be nothing in your life
48:01
unfortunately that is their whole life
48:04
at this stage and that is important to
48:06
them as somebody else losing their
48:08
business and we’ve got to deal with that
48:10
at their stage of reality and and give a
48:12
credence and and deal with it just the
48:14
same as my brother deals with his paper
48:16
cuts
48:16
he would probably hate me if he ever
48:18
hears me talking about his paper cuts
48:20
like this
48:21
but he but he very consciously said it
48:23
and he said a lot in front of lots of
48:25
other people because he likes to make
48:26
fun of me as well but the reality is
48:29
that stolen book for that child is their
48:31
reality and the same process has worked
48:34
for that child has worked for the
48:35
fighter pilots has worked for you and
48:37
your podcasts has worked for me in my
48:39
business now it is a universal thing so
48:42
how does your
48:43
story um after being shot 14 times fit
48:47
onto that continuum because when you
48:49
were assessing risk and reward i’m
48:53
sure you didn’t have becoming a public
48:54
speaker and telling these stories and
48:57
and doing all this
48:59
on the list of things that might be a
49:00
possible outcome or was it was this one
49:03
of the possible outcomes you planned for
49:04
i
49:05
i described my journey into the speaking
49:08
world as i was dragged in kicking and
49:11
screaming
49:12
i did not want to come here in any way
49:15
shape or form uh i was approached by
49:17
corporates i
49:18
talked quite comfortably about it
49:20
obviously and i’ve been doing it ever
49:22
since the shooting you know
49:23
i was cracking jokes with myself at the
49:25
time the bullets were hitting me and
49:27
i’ve always been that way it’s not
49:28
dismissive of seriousness
49:30
it’s just being able to manage it well
49:32
and manage the emotions so when i got
49:34
into an environment where i was talking
49:36
to some corporates they’re going you’ve
49:37
got to come and tell my company about
49:39
this and i’ve gone no way not because
49:40
i’m scared of the public speaking per se
49:42
but i thought they wanted a hero story
49:45
and as much as i liked telling stories i
49:47
wasn’t the hero on the day the hero on
49:49
the day were the guys that risked their
49:50
lives to come in and get me out the hero
49:52
on the day was the doctor and the
49:54
ambulance officers
49:56
who stood in direct line of fire for 10
49:58
minutes risking their lives to save mine
50:01
they were the heroes if you want to hear
50:03
a story go and talk to them so i i tried
50:05
to get away from it but i used stack of
50:07
blood
50:08
the body holds 10 units of blood i use
50:10
24 units of blood in seven hours
50:14
and the blood service came to me and
50:15
said derek
50:16
you used a stack of blood
50:20
and they said how would you like to tell
50:21
your story and just say thank you to
50:23
blood donors for the difference that
50:25
they’ve made in your life and that was
50:27
very comfortable for me because i wasn’t
50:29
telling a hero story for my sake i was
50:31
telling a hero story to
50:33
uh say thank you so it was all about
50:35
them and and this again goes back to
50:38
what it is that drives us i was doing
50:41
this for someone else
50:43
but once i started speaking to the blood
50:45
donors i found out that there were more
50:47
messages than what i was saying than
50:48
what i realized because people were
50:50
coming to me and saying my gosh that
50:51
little bit there has changed my life
50:53
this has given me a different
50:54
perspective i can’t wait to tell my
50:56
partner about and i’ve gone oh gosh okay
50:59
maybe there’s something more to this and
51:01
so
51:02
it has evolved
51:04
almost organically since then and now i
51:07
get to travel the world well i did
51:08
before covert starting to happen again
51:11
but i’ve spoken to four thousand person
51:12
audiences in singapore i’ve been to
51:14
vietnam and spoken to universities over
51:17
there three times been to america new
51:19
zealand
51:20
a company made me go to fiji with them
51:23
made me go to the intercontinental
51:26
resort made me stay there for five days
51:28
it was really cool for you
51:30
[Laughter]
51:32
but because of the way i’ve approached
51:34
it and and just that approach that i
51:37
have taken that i’m able to pass on to
51:39
other people
51:40
my life’s sensational again it was
51:42
always going to be sensational but it’s
51:44
sensational in in many
51:46
uh more ways it’s it’s a very rich life
51:49
so this is the new confident zone yeah
51:52
for me um there’s a lot of
51:54
durability in what i’m doing now there
51:57
is a lot of transitioning back to
51:59
resilience as well and and certainly
52:01
when covert hit and i had to
52:03
completely change my business and go to
52:05
online virtual
52:07
i went right back to fragile
52:10
but sometimes it’s our ability to be
52:12
vulnerable enough as brene brown will
52:14
tell you be vulnerable enough to go i’ve
52:16
got a lot of learning to do here you
52:17
learn a lot faster
52:19
and you feel a lot more comfortable
52:21
within yourself you don’t suffer the
52:23
mental strain and stress that might be
52:26
associated with trying to go no i’m 100
52:29
reliable i’m so good i’ll be able to do
52:31
this transition without even thinking
52:33
about i’ve got no we’ve all got new
52:35
things to learn and i had a lot to learn
52:37
so i’ve certainly been back and forwards
52:39
along that continuum many times and
52:41
certainly when we started this podcast
52:42
today i’ve done a number of podcasts and
52:45
and i felt more comfortable doing this
52:47
certainly the first ones for me it was
52:50
oh gosh how do we do this what if i say
52:51
the wrong thing
52:53
but i know that you guys are all looking
52:55
to make us all look good so if i make a
52:58
really big gaffe you will look after me
53:00
i’m hoping
53:02
we’ve got 20 years of editing experience
53:04
behind us derek don’t you worry
53:06
blackmail you for the trip to fiji
53:09
yeah that’s right
53:10
i promise to take you on the next one i
53:12
promise i promise
53:14
this might be a question or a
53:16
conversation indeed for like another
53:18
time but um you’re talking about the
53:20
testosterone-filled environment with
53:23
when you’re actually returning to work
53:25
do you think that there is some work to
53:28
be done in general around toxic
53:31
masculinity which has become another
53:32
buzzword recently around all of the
53:34
things that are happening around with
53:36
treatment of women and that sort of
53:37
thing
53:38
let me think about that just for a
53:39
moment absolutely
53:41
that’s all it took me to think about
53:42
that night absolutely i grew up in the
53:44
60s i was born in 59 grew up in the 60s
53:46
through the 70s through the 80s the way
53:49
we are now realizing what we used to do
53:52
back then and what was acceptable back
53:53
then which was absolutely wrong we’ve
53:55
got a lot of learning to do
53:57
unfortunately some people don’t want to
53:59
change what they have done in the past
54:02
and it is hard i understand that going
54:04
through any changes is difficult but i
54:06
think what we’ve got to do is look at
54:08
the reality of our actions in the past
54:10
and this is not just about toxic
54:12
masculinity this is about the way we
54:14
have treated races and nations and and
54:17
all the rest of it we’ve got a lot of
54:18
learning to do from our past experiences
54:21
but if we all want to grow towards a
54:23
better future for ourselves for our
54:25
children for for the planet essentially
54:28
then we’ve got to start learning from
54:29
the past and and changing for the future
54:32
but the toxic masculinity affects a lot
54:35
of those areas that we’re talking about
54:37
do you think it stems from a reluctance
54:39
to show vulnerability or do you think
54:41
it’s a lot broader than that you know i
54:43
look back at the the 60s 70s 80s 90s men
54:46
were expected by their male peers to be
54:49
of a certain behavior and if you did
54:52
show
54:52
vulnerability to anything else it was
54:55
the case back in the 80s that you know
54:57
that your mates would beat up on you
54:59
literally physically beat up on you
55:01
you’re basically beaten into being that
55:04
type of person if you wanted to fit into
55:06
society so the vulnerability has almost
55:09
been beaten out of us but when we’re
55:11
vulnerable enough to go do you know
55:12
something i think there’s a different
55:14
way of doing this that is actually a
55:16
stronger position than just sticking to
55:19
your guns and saying no i’m doing it
55:20
right
55:21
um and it’s recognizing where the true
55:24
strength comes from uh which is one of
55:26
the the greatest things we can move
55:27
forward there’s lots of
55:29
i mean prime minister of australia bob
55:31
hawke when he cried on media how much
55:35
trouble did he get in with his peers
55:37
with all the testosterone-filled men but
55:39
now we realize that crying is one of the
55:41
best things we can possibly do if we are
55:43
feeling something so emotional we allow
55:46
our feelings to flow naturally
55:49
it reduces stress it allows us to share
55:52
allows people to be understanding of us
55:55
that vulnerability is is invaluable you
55:57
talk about strategies to help deal with
55:59
that specifically what’s in you toolkit
56:01
specifically in my tool kit my first
56:03
go-to is always sleep as soon as i start
56:05
getting stressed start getting
56:06
overwhelmed i look at my my sleep
56:08
patterns and go
56:10
have i been getting enough sleep and to
56:12
be quite honest i’m not the greatest
56:13
sleeper not because i don’t sleep well
56:15
just because i don’t allow myself to go
56:17
to sleep so i look at my sleep first and
56:19
that’s one of the most important things
56:21
because that’s when our body just
56:22
naturally replenishes relaxes and we
56:25
wake up refreshed i also look at my
56:27
nutrition what have i been eating lately
56:29
and don’t get me wrong i’m not a health
56:32
freak if i sit down with a packet of tim
56:33
tams i can easily stop at one packet
56:37
um
56:38
and and that’s you know honest my my
56:40
friends will buy me packs of tim tams
56:42
for my birthdays because they know i
56:43
love them but i do look at my nutrition
56:45
have i been eating well as much as i
56:47
love my chocolates and my sweets i also
56:49
you know i will do quite often do dinner
56:51
of steamed vegetables and with a little
56:53
bit of herbs and spices on them because
56:55
i you know i knew i know that’s what i
56:57
enjoy but my body needs it so i’ll look
56:59
at my nutrition i look at my hydration
57:01
as well this is one that’s highly
57:03
underrated by people if our body is not
57:06
well hydrated it doesn’t operate
57:08
optimally and so that for me is another
57:11
one and then it’s about what are the
57:13
things that i enjoy doing that i relax
57:16
and start getting the feet of good body
57:19
brain chemicals into my body one of them
57:21
is spending time with my partner
57:23
spending time with my children
57:25
and as louise and i was discussing this
57:27
morning i like bike riding
57:29
i went out for a
57:31
26 kilometer bike ride this morning and
57:34
i described it as just a little bike
57:35
ride um
57:37
very little just a tiny one but well
57:40
two weeks ago i was on a charity ride
57:42
and charities big part of my life i
57:44
liked contributing but i went on a
57:46
charity ride where we rode a thousand
57:48
kilometers in seven days so the 26
57:50
kilometers was just a little bike ride
57:52
for me uh but that’s the sort of thing i
57:54
like doing but it’s a strategy that i
57:56
know when i start getting stressed get
57:57
on the bike derrick but i don’t have to
57:59
push hard i just need to get out and
58:01
ride because when i’m riding my mind
58:03
goes to a different place and i love
58:05
riding through the hills and looking at
58:06
the trees smelling the scents of that
58:09
going past gum trip there’s one place
58:11
that i go through where i’ve got gum
58:13
trees on one side pine trees on the
58:15
other and the senses are just assaulted
58:17
by these two
58:19
beautiful aromas
58:21
and i know that’s what i enjoy doing and
58:23
when i do come back from my bike ride i
58:25
feel refreshed but it’s that those
58:27
conscious strategies that we put into
58:30
place knowing the result that we want
58:32
from them that can really just break
58:34
that tension that stress
58:36
ability to be able to manage stress
58:38
connection with other people as well we
58:39
are social animals and some people say
58:41
i’m more social than the average animal
58:44
i like to be connected to people and i
58:45
like to talk and spend time i’ve started
58:48
learning uh how to dance ballroom dance
58:51
latin dancing
58:53
um and i enjoy going out and socialising
58:56
with those people it’s just a beautiful
58:57
community to be in and i know that
58:59
replenishes me as well i’m always of the
59:01
opinion that the way that other people
59:03
treat you reflects more on how they feel
59:05
about themselves than
59:07
anything else i’m wondering how that
59:10
treatment for you has changed throughout
59:11
your journey because people would have
59:13
been i suppose uncomfortable or not know
59:16
what to say not know how to handle it
59:18
what have you noticed not know how to
59:20
handle uh me talking about the shooting
59:23
or the the fact that i was injured
59:24
you were injured all of those things
59:27
yeah absolutely i have had many many
59:29
conversations where people say uh derek
59:31
can you um tell us about that thing that
59:34
happened to you can tell us about that
59:36
um that accident
59:38
uh do you know that and i’ll go oh you
59:41
mean the shooting oh um
59:43
yes
59:44
oh you mean when i excuse my language
59:46
here i sometimes say uh you know oh you
59:49
mean when i got the shot out of me
59:52
um
59:53
and
59:54
because i am that relaxed about it and
59:56
when people start getting their head
59:58
around that they go oh so it’s okay to
60:01
talk about it and and that has changed
60:03
over a period of time
60:05
but to put it into a different realm
60:09
during my time as a police officer
60:11
i was working with a very uh young girl
60:14
whose sister died now she was about 24
60:18
at the time the sister was 27 i was in
60:20
my 40s already when her sister died
60:22
everybody was sort of walking around her
60:25
not knowing you know what to say where
60:27
everybody’s on eggshells and she would
60:28
just talk about her sister as if her
60:30
sister was still alive
60:32
uh and say oh casey would have put in
60:34
her uh football tips as xyz was going oh
60:37
my gosh is she living in denial she
60:39
wasn’t living in denial and i had
60:41
conversations with her about this it was
60:43
just like well i know it’s happened it’s
60:45
very upsetting for me um but she’s still
60:47
part of my life she’s not physically
60:49
part of my life but she’s part of
60:51
everything i think about when we have
60:52
you know parties you know it’s not that
60:54
we would deny that she was she’s not
60:56
there uh but we’ll also talk about it
60:59
and it’s becoming that comfortable with
61:01
talking about our feelings it still
61:03
upsets us she gets emotional she gets
61:05
teary about it from time to time but
61:07
she’s still comfortable talking about it
61:08
i’m comfortable talking about the
61:09
shooting because it’s something that
61:11
actually happened now if it was maybe
61:14
something one of your children have died
61:16
the emotion
61:18
are associated with that may be
61:20
overwhelming you may not want to talk
61:22
about it everybody has their own
61:23
different ways of of being able to deal
61:25
with these things and i think it’s
61:27
finding out how other people want to
61:29
deal with it themselves and managing it
61:31
that way but being open to going if
61:33
you’re comfortable talking about it then
61:35
i’m comfortable talking about it as well
61:36
and and having said that i’ve been in
61:38
conversations with people who don’t know
61:40
my history and we’ve been talking about
61:42
injuries we’ve been talking about trauma
61:44
we’ve been talking about mental health
61:46
and i won’t even mention the shooting
61:47
because it’s not an important part of
61:49
that conversation that’s just something
61:51
that happened to me that gave me some
61:53
insights gave me some experiences when i
61:54
almost have an accident in my car or
61:56
when i have praying my car that gives me
61:59
insights as well when i fall off my bike
62:01
and you know break a bone
62:04
that gives me insights as well the
62:05
shooting is just one aspect of my life
62:08
it’s not my whole life it’s not the
62:09
dominant part of my life it is something
62:11
that people go oh wow how did you deal
62:13
with that but then i bring in how i
62:15
dealt with all these other things in my
62:16
life as well that allowed me to deal
62:19
with that shooting in the way that i did
62:21
and again that comes back to the paper
62:23
cut you know how we manage that paper
62:25
cut will influence how we manage the
62:27
bigger things in our lives as well you
62:29
have an incredible story derek an
62:31
incredible mindset i’m in awe of
62:33
everything you’ve been able to achieve
62:35
and to re have come to realizations with
62:37
and help people with thank you so much
62:39
for sharing all that with us today
62:41
really appreciate the time yeah yeah
62:43
thank you so much i’ve gone into things
62:46
in a different way today than what i’ve
62:47
done in the past and and that’s always
62:49
good for me so you you’ve certainly dug
62:51
into my mind in a different way as well
62:53
we pushed you out of that confidence
62:59
well to be quite honest i hope you did
63:01
for a little while there and then build
63:03
me back up
63:04
um oh listen it’s been great i’ve really
63:06
enjoyed it thanks so much
63:08
next time on re-frame of mind we’ll take
63:10
a look at how we can apply what derek
63:11
has imparted to our own circumstances
63:14
and chat to motivational speaker chris
63:15
helder about finding that useful belief
63:18
my idea of reframe is
63:21
this idea of useful belief and what’s
63:23
the difference between that and as you
63:24
say toxic positivity the studies have to
63:27
really show that positive thinking you
63:28
know is a band-aid then it doesn’t work
63:30
and it’s actually that studies show you
63:32
actually feel worse about yourself than
63:34
when you started so you you know and
63:35
you’re like gosh i can’t even do
63:37
positive well and i tried to do positive
63:39
and really positive thinking and
63:40
negative thinking or emotive thinking
63:44
you’ve been hearing our story and now we
63:46
really want to hear yours connect with
63:48
at reframe of mind on instagram facebook
63:50
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63:53
welcome change media on linkedin you can
63:55
also contact us via reframe
63:57
reframeofmind.com.ayu with your stories
63:59
or suggestions for future topics we’d
64:01
like to thank today’s guests for sharing
64:03
their personal stories and insights for
64:05
more information on any of the subjects
64:07
guests or references used in this
64:08
episode please see our show notes or
64:10
reframe reframeofmind.com
64:13
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