Youtube transcript:

00:00

we acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna

00:01

nations as traditional custodians of the

00:03

land on which we work live and learn and

00:06

their continuing connection with the

00:07

land waters and community we pay our

00:09

respects to them and their elders past

00:11

and present all content related to this

00:13

program is for general informational

00:15

purposes only and contains stories and

00:17

discussion around mental health that may

00:20

be disturbing to some listeners if you

00:22

are concerned about yourself or someone

00:24

you know please seek professional and

00:26

individual advice and support

00:28

more details are contained in our show

00:30

Notes

00:31

tired of being told you can’t exist in a

00:34

Vacuum

00:35

well now you can suck at 3 000.

00:39

we’ve all had those pesky relationships

00:41

we just can’t get right

00:44

get ready to suck it and hoover up all

00:47

those people who don’t agree with you

00:51

eliminate all of those unnecessary

00:53

attachments and leave those dirt bags

00:56

for dust

00:58

the new suck it 3000 is everything

01:02

you’ve been looking for

01:05

when you suck it you’re always right

01:08

because there’s nobody left to argue

01:10

with wet or dry

01:13

suck it to remove those awkward

01:16

situations you find yourself in all over

01:19

Again

01:20

and did we mention you’ll never find an

01:23

opposing opinion ever again but don’t

01:26

take my word for it

01:30

i’ve been a fan of the socket range

01:32

since the socket 1000 got rid of my

01:35

toxic high school friends

01:37

then the sucker 2000 got rid of my toxic

01:40

husband and all of my toxic colleagues

01:43

as someone who’s always surrounded by so

01:46

many toxic people i can’t wait to see

01:49

what the sucker 3000 cleans us

01:52

i had to keep changing jobs for decades

01:55

because there’d be toxic bosses

01:57

but with the suck at 3000

02:00

there’s no one left to boss me around

02:04

my toxic girlfriend kept nagging me to

02:06

pick up the dirty wet towels off the

02:07

floor and clean up my messes when i just

02:09

wanted to decompress after i came home

02:11

from work and playing the xbox then i

02:14

got the sucker 3000 underwear no more

02:16

nagging and i just stopped using towels

02:18

problem solved

02:20

what are you waiting for

02:22

call now and start living in your own

02:24

vacuum today

02:26

one two suck it three thousand

02:30

get vacuuming today and see what

02:33

existing without those annoying other

02:35

people interacting with you is really

02:37

like

02:40

i started living in a vacuum and i love

02:43

it

02:45

hello

02:48

hello don’t be antibacks act now

02:52

this is the booster you’ve been waiting

02:54

for

02:56

but wait there’s more call in the next

02:59

10 minutes and receive this turbo really

03:02

brush off head

03:04

perfect for all those related by blood

03:07

stains

03:09

what are you waiting for

03:11

one two

03:12

suck it three thousand

03:16

i feel attacked andy yeah well at least

03:18

now we’re mainly feeling attacked by

03:20

ourselves though that’s us not living in

03:22

a vacuum and this

03:24

is reframe of mind

03:26

the podcast that cuts through the

03:27

platter shoots and gets to the core of

03:29

living authentically challenging our

03:30

assumptions and improving mental health

03:32

with the guidance of good science

03:33

philosophy and learning from other

03:35

people’s lived experiences we’re your

03:37

hosts andy leroy and louise poole and

03:39

we’re at episode 11 of reframe of mind

03:42

now andy can you believe it i can but

03:45

only because we plotted out 42 episodes

03:47

what i can’t believe is people are still

03:48

listening oh well

03:51

it’s cause we’re awesome hello maybe

03:52

it’s because we’re sharing our deep dark

03:54

secrets or dark deep secrets according

03:58

to the paper um

04:00

we’re at that part of our journey where

04:02

we’ve been navigating our feelings on

04:04

some deeply personal matters and

04:05

responding in ways that support us look

04:07

as best we know how yeah and we’ve also

04:10

at this point embarked on a business

04:12

venture together called welcome change

04:13

media and started realizing that similar

04:16

challenges are cropping up for us

04:17

psychologically as we got more invested

04:20

in that

04:21

like your little voice that sounded like

04:23

a paradon repeat at times saying we

04:25

don’t live in a vacuum

04:27

we don’t live in a vacuum

04:31

as flattering as the description is

04:34

it is kind of accurate

04:36

but we wanted to make sure that we

04:38

weren’t clearing the decks only to buy

04:39

the chairs back from a second-hand

04:41

dealer to create the same effect that

04:43

reminds me of very much of your line in

04:45

the sand analogy that i didn’t get then

04:47

and still don’t get now

04:50

but i’m sure someone that’s listening

04:52

we’ll get it

04:53

so long as it’s not the titanic we’re

04:55

all good and when we spoke to sally

04:56

goldner am last episode it got us

04:59

thinking about whether what we’ve

05:00

embarked on is really something new or

05:02

if we’ve just been trying to recreate

05:03

what we’ve been doing all along

05:06

we hear a lot well sometimes we don’t

05:09

hear about organizations and values and

05:11

then sometimes yeah we’ve got an

05:13

organisation that points to a value

05:15

statement i had a really good diagram

05:17

about this on a webinar i was on a few

05:20

months ago and imagine the proverbial

05:22

archery target and sure the center the

05:24

bullseye in the center is values and

05:26

then the next ring out is behaviours and

05:29

so the problem is when behaviours aren’t

05:32

consistently ring don’t reinforce those

05:34

values or where people don’t look at

05:36

their behaviors and go oh hang on we’re

05:39

not matching here that’s where things

05:41

break down

05:42

so we’re going to take a deep dive into

05:44

organizational values later in this

05:46

episode and how this can impact

05:48

employers and employees yeah and jane

05:50

madden board member for the black dog

05:52

institute and chair for the fred hollows

05:54

foundation chats to us a little bit

05:55

later about mental health in the

05:57

workplace

05:58

mental health is everyone’s business and

06:00

i think it doesn’t matter whether you’re

06:03

a student or in

06:05

perhaps in a leadership role with you in

06:07

government or the not-for-profit sector

06:09

that it is everyone’s business and i

06:11

think the covert crisis has just brought

06:14

a new awareness and encouraged even more

06:16

conversations about mental health in

06:19

australia

06:21

and mindfulness author and burnout

06:23

expert annie harvey walks us through

06:25

what to look out for and what can help

06:28

i think it’s really critical that people

06:29

know how close they are to what we call

06:31

falling off the cliff because once you

06:32

fall off once you burn out it takes a

06:35

really long time to heal it’s not like

06:37

bouncing back as we like to call it

06:39

after a couple of weeks it can take six

06:40

months or even up to two years to

06:42

actually heal from that

06:44

so i think we need to take this back to

06:47

the day we first met louise okay hang on

06:50

let me get my heart out

06:51

[Music]

06:54

okay ah

06:56

okay now that now we’re back in time it

06:58

was wet season

07:00

2009 tell someone that that’s a very

07:03

darwin northern territory term um it is

07:06

before i go googling wet season and it

07:09

comes up with not families friendly

07:10

results

07:11

exactly

07:13

so it was january 2009 and i was flying

07:17

into darwin for the very first time i’d

07:18

never been there before it was very

07:19

exciting i’d lived in sydney all my life

07:22

basically pretty much and i was invited

07:25

to come and work for a radio station on

07:28

their drive program and to be their

07:30

music director and i was so excited it’s

07:32

great it was my first commercial radio

07:33

gig and i gave you that job you did so

07:36

you owe me now

07:37

[Laughter]

07:39

well

07:40

we’ll get down to the accountancy of

07:42

what

07:43

you always want a bit later but

07:46

so you you left that job you left me

07:48

there alone i mean i did whatever

07:51

um

07:53

and so we didn’t work professionally

07:55

together again until we started this

07:56

business so that’s what i mean 10 12

07:59

years well look i left darwin in 2010 so

08:03

that’s when i moved to adelaide so yeah

08:05

it’s 12 years

08:06

pretty much 11 years at a lapse by the

08:08

time we started talking about welcome

08:11

change media and you went into which

08:13

industries okay so when i moved to

08:16

adelaide i went and managed a community

08:18

radio station for a while

08:20

and then i moved around a little bit

08:22

career-wise so i took various leadership

08:24

positions in a few different places so

08:27

i’ve managed things from a little team

08:30

in aged care doing resident lifestyle

08:32

through to telecommunications and

08:34

internet i even worked on a help desk at

08:36

one point teaching people that’s why i’m

08:37

so good with the computer to turn their

08:39

computers on and off switch it on it’s

08:41

power cycle again yeah power cycle right

08:43

um

08:44

it’s out of scope madam i’m sorry i

08:46

don’t deal with microsoft mail but i’m

08:48

willing to help you because i’ve got

08:50

great customer service skills that kind

08:52

of stuff and you know i was quite happy

08:54

in that because i worked in call centers

08:57

before working in radio and i’d worked

08:59

in office jobs you know i’d been in a

09:01

government position before you employed

09:03

me i was seven years working for a

09:05

government agency before that so i guess

09:07

i went back to a comfort zone you know i

09:09

didn’t enter media from a young age so

09:12

it didn’t feel like it was necessarily

09:14

my patch like that so i i went back and

09:16

did other things and i was quite happy

09:18

yeah but there was still that itch

09:20

there’s always that itch

09:21

my journey is i suppose the opposite of

09:23

yours i did start in media from a young

09:25

age i’ve often said i’ve never had a

09:27

real job because every paid job i’ve

09:29

ever had has been working in commercial

09:31

media in some way shape or form i don’t

09:33

know what it’s like to do something else

09:35

i don’t know what it’s like to stack

09:36

shelves at woolies neither do i

09:38

[Laughter]

09:40

my world has been this uh insular media

09:43

thing and so after we parted ways in

09:45

darwin i ended up moving to a couple of

09:47

other jobs but eventually making my way

09:49

to brisbane and being on the radio doing

09:52

the music

09:53

i spent eight and a bit years pretty

09:56

much in the number one and two slot of

09:58

brisbane commercial radio in the

10:00

mornings so while i was assisting in

10:02

some ways to lift people to the toilet

10:04

you were actually speaking to people in

10:06

a prime time position well they were on

10:08

the toilet probably they were probably

10:10

on the toilet i would i would have been

10:12

[Laughter]

10:14

directly to your loo

10:16

i was there with you when you were in

10:18

the car on the way to work and you

10:19

picked your nose and you thought no one

10:21

could see you because you were in the

10:22

car and it’s like a little fortress

10:25

motion by motion with louise poole

10:28

i was there with you when you were

10:30

shopping and you heard someone talk

10:32

right up to the start of a song

10:34

and you thought why don’t they just play

10:36

the song

10:37

why can’t they just play the intro and

10:39

not talk over it in the wreck

10:41

because in radio world we have these

10:43

competitions where we talk to the post

10:45

so you’re never ever going to get a

10:47

situation where they’re not going to

10:48

talk over it that kind of wraps up i

10:50

don’t know that’s ten years in three

10:52

minutes right it’s about i think so

10:55

that’s the very very shortened edition

10:57

do you need to play the outgoing harper

10:59

will be good um i mean i can get it

11:00

should i i’ll play it backwards hang on

11:05

[Applause]

11:07

it sounds a lot like it does forwards

11:09

doesn’t it yeah it does doesn’t sound a

11:11

lot different no so we started this

11:12

business welcome change media with both

11:14

of those backgrounds that’s where we

11:16

come from and we got together in 2020 to

11:18

make it and we genuinely wanted to make

11:20

something that has never been done

11:22

before but the way we imagine it to be

11:25

yeah and boy was it easy for us to let

11:27

our imaginations run wild with the

11:29

excitement of everything we wanted to do

11:31

and what we knew we were capable of

11:32

doing and i think at that time when we

11:34

first started what you needed to work on

11:36

was letting go of being that underling

11:38

or assistant that old boss dynamic that

11:40

you had with me because we were 50 50 in

11:42

a partnership yeah and i think in the

11:44

same way you need to let go of from

11:47

doing everything all the time to justify

11:48

making things that you want to make

11:50

cold out

11:53

ouch and personally i think we’ve been

11:55

changed by the experiences in between

11:58

that led us to this point as well

12:01

[Music]

12:02

so i think we need to throw back now to

12:05

just a little under a year ago um we

12:08

just started the business episode one is

12:10

a really good point to that beginning

12:13

where my radio career had ended and andy

12:16

had experienced a major shift in family

12:18

dynamics after his dad had died um we

12:20

just gotten welcome change media going

12:23

and then we had to take on some other

12:25

opinions yeah so as we’re starting the

12:28

new venture together excited about all

12:30

the possibilities this is where we

12:32

started to have to contend with our

12:33

partners concerns about money not coming

12:35

in while we focused on building things

12:37

the way we wanted to in the right way it

12:39

has and it still does at times lead us

12:42

to wonder if we’re making decisions that

12:44

are right for us or if they’re ones that

12:46

we feel like we have to make to be

12:48

successful yeah we don’t want to just go

12:50

around taking money off any random sort

12:52

of person that wants to give it to us

12:54

because we need to make sure that what

12:55

we’re helping them to promote is also in

12:57

line with our values it’s that

12:58

authenticity isn’t it it is yeah and a

13:02

couple of episodes ago in episode nine

13:04

we met hugh kearns who is a lecturer and

13:06

researcher in the area of high

13:07

performance at flinders university and

13:09

hugh gave us an interesting perspective

13:11

on this related to the imposter syndrome

13:14

we sometimes use our own imposter

13:16

syndrome to deflect that onto other

13:19

people an example i’m thinking of was

13:20

recently when luis and i played an early

13:23

audio draft to some of our friends our

13:26

significant others consistently between

13:28

the two of them told us that our part of

13:31

it wasn’t that great but the other

13:32

persons was which was a bit strange

13:36

yeah we’re still holding it against them

13:38

yes well

13:39

well first of all um i suppose as an

13:42

outsider observing or i’d be thinking

13:44

well let’s look at the facts here you

13:45

know i don’t know maybe that’s true it

13:47

is the case no let’s not listen to it or

13:49

maybe and again it’ll probably be to do

13:52

with their expectations of you as well

13:53

they’ll be thinking well you have done

13:54

so you should do more or if the other

13:56

person has never talked before maybe

13:58

they were good because they started so

13:59

people have a whole range of

14:00

expectations so i suppose what i’d be

14:02

trying to do is sit down objectively and

14:03

look at it and go what is going on here

14:06

was that the case and it could be maybe

14:07

the present maybe the person you’re

14:09

interviewing was just awesome that

14:10

sounds brilliant and uh

14:12

or maybe you did get it wrong or maybe

14:13

not and so again uh without actually

14:16

having seen the event i’m not so sure

14:18

what would really be going on there so

14:19

yeah so i i i’ll be having a little chat

14:21

with you sticking with other and say

14:23

well you could be nice here as well yeah

14:25

it was just an interesting um sidetrack

14:26

for us because normally we turn to our

14:29

significant others family friends for

14:32

the default praise and that’s often

14:34

something that we’ll use to say oh well

14:35

you know they would say that because

14:37

that’s right yeah yeah because we’re so

14:38

closely linked um just seemed like a

14:40

really odd turnaround yeah

14:43

here’s a little secret you can tell your

14:44

family as well or anyone but when

14:46

anybody ever asks you for feedback they

14:48

probably don’t want feedback at all they

14:50

just want someone to tell you that you

14:51

were right

14:53

[Laughter]

14:55

this is a

14:56

a little relationship tip you learn

14:58

early on in life you know when your

14:59

partner asks you know what do you really

15:00

think

15:01

that’s not what they mean

15:03

i love it

15:04

i love it that’s right

15:08

when you’re when your partner is trying

15:09

on clothes how does this look on me this

15:11

looks great

15:13

yes it’s amazing great in that so yeah

15:15

so you got to be a little bit careful

15:17

about uh

15:18

why people give feedback or when they

15:19

ask for it you know how honest do you

15:21

really want to be

15:23

so what you said actually caused us to

15:25

have a think about our expectations that

15:27

we’re placing on ourselves andy i think

15:28

it’s time to

15:30

get out the heart

15:31

go for it

15:33

[Music]

15:35

so cast your mind back again um

15:38

because this our story is taking place

15:40

in two different timelines it’s starting

15:42

to be uh very tenet here um

15:45

not to get too revolving doors about at

15:47

all but

15:48

um because we’re telling you a story uh

15:51

around stuff that was happening to us

15:52

when we were first interviewing these

15:54

guests and it was last year so last

15:56

episode you heard from sally golden am

15:59

in our real time now but we actually

16:02

spoke to sally golden up almost a year

16:04

ago in the other timeline yeah and i

16:07

think it’s fair to say that we were both

16:09

in pretty different head spaces at the

16:11

time from where we were coming from on

16:13

our own personal journeys you know for

16:15

me you know we’ve said different parts

16:17

of recapping the series so far that i

16:19

just lost my father and that’s true and

16:22

he still hasn’t come back because he

16:23

died but where i was within all that as

16:26

well not to be too flippant about it is

16:28

that my whole

16:30

model of the world changed when he died

16:33

because

16:34

the family of orientation which i’ve

16:36

covered as a concept

16:38

some episodes back episode one i think

16:39

that was now anybody who cares to listen

16:41

back to that one it kind of speaks to

16:43

the family that you’re born into

16:45

traditionally if you are living the

16:48

prescribed heterosexual life you’ll go

16:50

and find a partner you’ll have children

16:52

and then you’ll create your own family

16:54

of procreation so when my father died

16:57

that was the linchpin of my family of

16:59

orientation that was then gone so then

17:02

the family tree splits into its own vows

17:05

and you know i’m the end i’m the

17:06

beginning and the end of my my branch so

17:09

i don’t have any children and you know

17:10

i’ve talked about that in different ways

17:13

in different kind of emotional states

17:15

over the years i’m quite okay with all

17:17

of that you know but at that point this

17:20

was all very raw for me when we were

17:21

speaking to sally so it kind of became

17:24

apparent to me at one point that even

17:26

though i have been out as gay since i

17:30

was 24 which is you know a good 26 years

17:32

or so ago now i still acted in certain

17:35

ways to shield people from what i

17:37

thought was unacceptable about that part

17:40

of me so you know the relationships that

17:43

i have had were accepted by my family

17:46

and my partners were accepted by my

17:47

family and for that you know i’m really

17:49

grateful and it shouldn’t even have to

17:51

be an issue or something to be having to

17:53

say that i’m grateful for or declare

17:55

that i’m grateful for because it should

17:57

just be

17:58

here’s andy’s partner you know but it’s

18:00

not always the case and there are

18:02

certain things that i’ve mentioned that

18:04

have happened growing up as well where

18:06

before i even i was aware that i was gay

18:08

but i became aware that my family didn’t

18:11

approve of gay people very early in life

18:14

and thankfully that had changed by the

18:16

time they actually realized that they

18:18

had someone who was gay in their own

18:19

family mostly

18:21

so you know there’s all of this editing

18:23

of your personality and self-editing

18:26

we’re doing that to ourselves yeah

18:27

absolutely self-editing is is definitely

18:30

what’s going on there because we want to

18:32

make sure that we are projecting an

18:35

acceptable version of ourselves to the

18:37

people that we love because if we don’t

18:39

we’ll be rejected um which uh

18:42

another throwback and i i’ve put the

18:44

harp away temporarily but um

18:47

episode five we spoke to joe fargus

18:49

about that in regards to tribalism um

18:52

and and that concept of being rejected

18:54

from the tribe and how evolutionarily

18:56

that wasn’t a good thing because you

18:58

know being thrown out of the tribe meant

19:00

dead eaten by a tiger those feelings

19:02

still hang over even though we’re no

19:04

longer living in you know the jungle so

19:07

to come back to the point of where i was

19:09

also psychologically when we were

19:11

speaking to sally you know all of this

19:13

stuff that we’ve spoken to joe about is

19:15

also really really pivotal in how i’m

19:18

starting to really relate to myself now

19:20

as well because suddenly at this point i

19:22

wanted to break free from just passively

19:24

accepting other people’s comments and

19:26

other people’s opinions and trying to

19:28

mold myself to them because you know

19:30

that kind of says that their truth is

19:32

more important than me or my truth so

19:35

you know this is kind of where some of

19:37

the questions that i’m asking and some

19:39

of the insights that i’m saying to glean

19:40

from these conversations are really

19:42

starting to make a real impact on me

19:43

valuing myself fully valuing myself and

19:46

it’s tricky too because one of the

19:48

things you’ve maintained from the

19:49

beginning is as we’ve been talking this

19:51

whole thing is that you don’t want the

19:52

relationships that you already have with

19:54

people that you love to end um but you

19:56

want to rebuild them in a way that’s

19:57

authentic and honest and honest for you

19:59

when the timing’s right yeah exactly so

20:02

you know when i talk about certain

20:03

patterns of behavior i talk about a

20:05

tendency for

20:07

families or friendship groups i don’t

20:09

know whether it’s necessarily an

20:11

australian thing or whether it’s

20:12

particular to certain types of people or

20:15

certain people but there is this whole

20:17

situation where we find a common a

20:20

common like weakling to yeah to set

20:23

ourselves on so it’s either your typical

20:26

laughing stock or it’s your typical

20:27

person who is the villain or you know

20:30

insert other here if we all get together

20:33

and other somebody else then we can have

20:35

something in common that’s right and

20:37

that’s that tribal sameness that we

20:39

build around that and i’d noticed over a

20:42

lot of years that that pattern of

20:44

relating had crept into a lot of my

20:47

relationships not just family but i

20:49

could pinpoint it from friendship

20:50

circles from years ago and even looking

20:53

at recent friendships as well i can

20:55

still see that trying to creep in and

20:57

i’ve really got to pull myself back and

21:00

remind myself that that’s not actually

21:02

who i am and not actually what i want

21:04

and if i keep participating in it then

21:05

i’m only going to keep getting it do you

21:07

think you were feeling that you weren’t

21:09

equal to everybody else oh yeah

21:11

absolutely what people say rings true

21:13

when they say you know if somebody is

21:15

talking about somebody else that way

21:16

what are they saying about you because i

21:19

have a lot of empathy because i actually

21:22

do listen to people and do relate to

21:23

them and do try to put myself in their

21:25

shoes that then extends to hang on a

21:27

minute so

21:29

what’s wrong with me

21:30

now like if if this person is

21:33

worthy of being laughed at for this

21:34

reason then what am i worthy of being

21:36

laughed at for how am i weird what am i

21:38

doing that’s you know not acceptable so

21:41

yeah there are lots of ways that i felt

21:43

like i wasn’t equal i can talk about

21:45

this in terms of okay let’s go right

21:47

back to childhood let’s go back i’m

21:48

gonna get the height

21:50

look i think you’re gonna need a

21:51

harpsichord for this one because we’re

21:53

going back to medieval times i don’t

21:55

have a button for that

21:59

[Laughter]

22:03

that’s a distant memory of harper

22:05

and his first appearance in an interview

22:07

i don’t have a harpsichord it turns out

22:08

i have a harp and a cat meow and a cat

22:11

called harpo yelling

22:14

so close enough

22:16

being the youngest child in my

22:17

experience manifested in me feeling

22:21

inadequate in a lot of ways because i

22:23

was always the one that had to be taught

22:25

i was always the one that didn’t know

22:26

enough i was always the one that thought

22:27

they knew better and didn’t actually

22:28

know that kind of it’s taken a

22:31

long time for me to grow out of that

22:33

mindset and to take myself out of that

22:35

and to actually value myself and to

22:37

value the experience that i’ve got

22:38

because when i interact with other

22:40

people outside of that dynamic they

22:42

don’t see that person they don’t see

22:43

that version of me i’ve commented before

22:46

how a previous partner would say to me

22:48

that when i was with my family i was

22:50

completely different person and it’s

22:51

true because i was re-entering that old

22:54

script that old pattern of behavior that

22:57

i felt that i had to to be acceptable

23:00

otherwise

23:02

so yeah i mean to come back to your

23:04

question about whether i feel equal or

23:05

not like a lot of the times no and i

23:07

know that came out as well early on in

23:10

our business relationship in our

23:11

partnership where i kept referring to

23:13

you as the one in charge or you know

23:15

feeling like you were the boss or the

23:17

overarching kind of waiting for me to

23:19

give the final approval on something

23:20

that we do yeah yeah yeah because that’s

23:22

always how i’ve worked as well i’ve

23:23

always gone to my boss and gone approved

23:25

not approved whatever when probably i

23:28

didn’t even necessarily need to do that

23:30

so

23:31

at this stage of the game when we’re

23:32

talking to sally in that interview but

23:35

certainly now as well you know i’d never

23:36

be happy to return to what was business

23:38

as usual you know living in that same

23:40

autopilot way of relating then walking

23:43

away and feeling privately undervalued

23:46

and that i wasn’t an equal in my

23:47

relationships whether it was family or

23:49

friends or business partners i think

23:51

this part of the interview with sally

23:53

really speaks to what you’re talking

23:54

about

23:55

i kind of feel also maybe i’ve done

23:57

myself a disservice by towing the line

23:59

for all of those years and not standing

24:00

up for who i actually am i think there’s

24:02

mixed thoughts there i mean hindsight’s

24:04

a wonderful thing and we can only keep

24:07

growing ourselves i think that that’s

24:09

the responsibility we have to ourselves

24:11

as an individual and then to each other

24:13

i’m going to leap into something that’s

24:15

been a bit of a pep topic lately and

24:17

that’s about leadership you know to me

24:20

leadership is about strengthening i’m

24:22

going to be bold and try to define it

24:24

leadership is about strengthening other

24:26

people but we can only do more of that

24:29

and do it more effectively when we

24:30

strengthen ourselves and that means

24:32

growing ourselves and i’m learning

24:34

things and i’m still doing it

24:37

so it’s funny how you said that at the

24:39

time we spoke to sally originally you

24:41

were kind of referring to me for the

24:43

decisions and letting me take the lead

24:45

on things because that was that old

24:47

dynamic that we had in place that old

24:48

boss employee dynamic because actually

24:51

when it came to talking to sally um for

24:53

the first time i don’t know if you

24:54

noticed this in the interview but i

24:57

let you run most of the first i suppose

25:00

first 20 minutes or so of the interview

25:02

because i was at a place where i wasn’t

25:05

really ready to claim ownership of parts

25:08

of myself

25:10

which i pointed out afterwards when we

25:11

heard the interview back and i went

25:14

that’s interesting that was an

25:16

interesting way to phrase that what did

25:17

you mean by that well look after

25:20

okay after we were speaking to sally for

25:22

i think it was probably about maybe 15

25:24

or 20 minutes and sally is

25:26

lovely and an absolute riot of a person

25:29

and she has a way of making you feel

25:31

very comfortable i think the

25:33

conversation got very deep and personal

25:35

and it was the first time in any

25:37

interview that i told someone

25:40

this

25:42

i often talk about like this idea of

25:44

comp head because i feel like i’m a late

25:47

blooming identifying as not straight and

25:49

that’s because of like that wasn’t it’s

25:51

just you know wasn’t a thing you know i

25:54

if if there’s an attraction to men then

25:56

i must be straight until you look at it

25:58

and go well what about all the other

26:00

things that you’re not admitting or

26:02

talking about and those are internal

26:04

biases that i had you know i i think in

26:07

my early uh 20s i probably would have

26:09

said oh i’m very straight but also in

26:11

the same sentence said

26:13

but i don’t really find men all that

26:14

attractive and women are far more

26:16

far more attractive um but that’s just

26:19

do you get what i mean sally yeah yeah

26:22

look we have these emotions that take

26:24

deep roots and as i say then they’re

26:26

buried under that top layer of coming

26:29

out in the first place and then we’ve

26:31

all got stuff as a person i suppose that

26:34

combines in with it as well and if you

26:36

if a person is a heterosexual cisgender

26:38

etc then

26:40

maybe they don’t think to tackle it but

26:42

i know for me i found that once i sort

26:44

of started going down the rabbit hole

26:47

sometimes i didn’t really want to keep

26:49

going but i suppose i did but it is

26:51

about wanting to learn and taking

26:53

responsibility and

26:55

having the willingness and ability to to

26:58

face these things and some of those

27:00

things as i say can be too strong to

27:03

face that’s not easy and so that we can

27:05

remain blocked

27:07

and that was something that really it

27:09

wasn’t comfortable for me that’s why i

27:11

stuttered all over that and you so

27:14

kindly made fun of me for it after

27:16

[Laughter]

27:17

well you know i mean it’s easy for me

27:20

isn’t it you know i’ve been like coming

27:22

out for 26 years you’ve been a late

27:23

blooming identifying as not straight for

27:25

26 years

27:28

kind of not the same flavor as you

27:31

certainly but yes

27:34

do you know

27:35

okay

27:36

when we started working together like

27:41

[Music]

27:43

when we started working together for the

27:45

second incarnation back in 2021 yeah

27:48

we’re in 2022 now yeah god we’ve lost to

27:50

you somewhere um

27:52

i think really a few weeks into us

27:54

working together you said something and

27:56

i forget what it i forget what it was um

27:59

and then i said well actually um because

28:02

you had no idea that i wasn’t straight

28:04

either no i didn’t and we were talking a

28:08

lot around about what kind of groups we

28:10

could actually try and you know seek

28:13

interview sources from and what kind of

28:16

messages that we wanted to support or

28:18

not support or otherwise and then the

28:21

conversation turned at one point to you

28:24

actually coming out to me as pen and at

28:26

that point in just the the general life

28:28

thing i think maybe three or four people

28:31

knew and that was it yeah i’d i had

28:34

realized it and come to that

28:36

understanding a few years earlier um but

28:38

you know being in a heterosexual

28:40

identifying relationship at the time i

28:42

had felt that i didn’t get to claim

28:44

myself as part of you know an lgbt qaa

28:48

plus kind of community as long as i’m

28:51

presenting in a heterosexual

28:52

relationship and so that was one of the

28:54

reasons why i didn’t say anything about

28:56

it

28:57

my family by the way were in the number

29:00

of people i hadn’t told i only told my

29:02

mother just before this podcast was

29:04

released in case she listened to it but

29:06

she didn’t so you know didn’t have to um

29:10

lucky

29:12

it was something that i felt really

29:14

uncomfortable saying it is though coming

29:16

out it’s never easy you know it’s

29:19

especially the first time you do it

29:20

because there is so much risk you know i

29:23

have been through coming out experiences

29:25

in all of the 26 years since i first

29:27

came out because people make an

29:30

assumption that you’re heterosexual you

29:31

know it it comes down to those moments

29:33

where in a nursing home just doing an

29:36

activity with one of the residents they

29:38

said to me have you got any kids how

29:39

many kids have you got and i said no i

29:42

don’t have any kids oh how come you know

29:44

and so the conversation goes it’s

29:46

constantly

29:48

bucking against those assumptions of

29:50

society that you’re a certain gender

29:52

you’re a certain age therefore one plus

29:55

one equals two and

29:57

humanity’s not like that um so it’s not

30:00

easy 2017. i should um do i need a

30:02

double harp for this i don’t i think so

30:04

i think you need harp with a little

30:06

squeak from harpo at the end

30:10

we’re gonna have to produce that later

30:11

we’re gonna have to produce that later

30:12

um

30:13

it’s a har papo

30:15

2017 uh marriage equality survey

30:18

traumatizing for good lord yes the

30:20

lgbtqia plus community um because again

30:24

somebody’s human rights their their

30:26

right to just even exist as a person is

30:29

up for debate um everyone’s got an

30:31

opinion and everyone wants to tell you

30:32

to it yes and whether they agree with it

30:34

or not whether it has anything to do

30:36

with them or not yeah great thanks for

30:38

sharing your opinion um go away um that

30:41

for me at that time uh before that i

30:44

probably would have told you i

30:45

identified as straight and i probably

30:47

would have believed that about myself

30:49

except then when the marriage equality

30:51

survey came about i was really angry and

30:55

i was really hurt i was really upset by

30:58

the fact that you know

31:00

not just from a human rights point of

31:02

view but

31:03

the the persecution of

31:05

that community i had to ask myself why

31:08

was i so passionate and um affected by

31:12

that and it’s also very difficult if

31:14

you’re feeling confusion at the very

31:16

least to then you know put yourself out

31:19

there as even an ally because then that

31:22

would turn the headlights straight

31:24

around to you and there you are speaking

31:27

up on behalf of a group and why are you

31:28

doing that you know because people don’t

31:30

do that unless they’ve got a personal

31:32

stake in it it was the common assumption

31:34

so one of the things that i mentioned

31:36

with sally in that interview was that

31:38

the marriage equality survey was really

31:40

the first time that i mentioned i

31:43

suppose you know mainstream lgbtqia

31:46

issues on commercial radio um and i felt

31:49

uncomfortable doing that even on on the

31:52

morning that they were announcing the

31:54

results it was you know it was just

31:56

before or just after 9am there was

31:58

scheduled to come at 9am and i’m sitting

32:00

there in my studio and i’m um watching

32:02

and waiting and my first break goes to

32:04

air and it’s like i think i said

32:06

something along the lines of whatever

32:07

happens this morning um with the results

32:10

i just you know want the

32:13

plus community listening to know that i

32:16

hear you when i’m here for you or

32:17

something like that i will say so that

32:19

morning i i said that in the first break

32:21

i basically said you know

32:23

the community has my support um i hope

32:25

this turns out for us today um the

32:28

proverbial us which is not really

32:30

implicating anybody it’s the kind of

32:33

you know no one no one who straight

32:35

notices the proverbial us and then the

32:37

results came through and so like five

32:38

minutes later you know um they did the

32:41

good news about the results and blah

32:43

blah blah blah blah then that morning

32:45

not not very long after that i said to

32:47

someone in the building and i i don’t i

32:50

don’t want to i don’t want to out them

32:52

in a non you know out way but i did say

32:55

how wonderful is that this morning that

32:58

the survey came through like that and

33:00

the majority of people support marriage

33:03

equality and they said back to me it’s

33:05

good to see democracy works

33:09

and that’s when i realized that that

33:11

person didn’t feel the same way i felt

33:13

about it

33:14

[Music]

33:17

thank you it is good democracy works

33:19

they obviously made a difference

33:21

selection on the survey form then i did

33:24

they said it’s good to see democracy

33:26

works

33:29

um

33:33

look you know

33:34

going back to what joe fergus said to us

33:36

back in episode five i think the danger

33:38

of howling people down and saying they

33:41

can’t have a different opinion is that

33:43

they’ll just not vocalize it but they’ll

33:44

still think it yeah yeah and that’s what

33:46

i felt so long as they don’t come at me

33:48

with their shitty opinions and try to

33:50

make me feel bad with their opinions i’m

33:53

happy for someone to think whatever they

33:55

like about me but as soon as they start

33:57

to attack me just like i wouldn’t attack

33:59

anybody with my opinion that whole thing

34:01

of live and let live i think is

34:02

something that we’ve really forgotten i

34:04

think the other part of that though is

34:06

that you know people say don’t polarize

34:08

anything don’t rock the boat like if

34:10

you’re in in media you know you don’t

34:11

get people offside don’t alienate your

34:14

listeners because if what was the number

34:16

in the end 56 of australians support

34:18

marriage equality well there’s still 44

34:20

that don’t and they’re still listeners

34:22

as well but

34:24

it’s so much of a bigger question of who

34:26

do you want to be and what do you want

34:27

to stand for and to get 100 of the

34:30

people all the time you’d have to agree

34:31

to some pretty terrible to whoever

34:34

is listening and it’s not necessarily in

34:36

line with your beliefs and your values

34:38

and that’s i think where the importance

34:39

of being able to to live and you know

34:42

express your own values is important too

34:44

because

34:45

why should anybody settle for something

34:47

that is less than what they expect for

34:50

themselves you know like there’s

34:52

probably a more eloquent way to put it

34:53

i’m not saying that go out and vilify

34:56

people who are different to you that’s

34:58

completely the opposite to what i’m

35:00

saying what i’m saying is that nobody if

35:02

they feel a certain way should feel that

35:04

they have to just accept somebody else’s

35:06

words or deeds and feel like they have

35:08

to keep the peace by saying nothing in

35:10

defense of themselves

35:12

because i’ve been in that situation

35:14

plenty of times myself and it’s not a

35:16

great place it’s not somewhere that you

35:18

want to be and you know there are plenty

35:20

of people with lots of different causes

35:22

going on at the moment and you know i

35:24

can specify you know like things like

35:26

these freedom marches for example that

35:28

are happening at the moment where

35:29

legitimately people are feeling upset by

35:32

actions or inaction in certain ways from

35:35

different groups like they

35:37

have been let down you know in one way

35:39

or another and

35:41

it’s a very common feeling generally

35:43

across the population but to then go to

35:46

the extreme and say

35:48

string them up or

35:50

you know whatever insert violent action

35:52

here and then polarize different groups

35:54

against each other because they’re

35:56

getting more than us or whatever it just

35:57

it’s got to stop you know because we

36:00

shouldn’t be in a position where people

36:01

are being prioritized over another

36:04

because of a difference or perceived

36:07

difference or being told that it’s like

36:09

that whole reverse racism argument which

36:12

is complete we’ve had this

36:14

conversation about quotas and things

36:16

before

36:17

until we get equity we can’t have

36:18

equality correct one of the things i

36:21

always say and i’ve said this to you

36:22

before i don’t know if i’ve said it in

36:23

the show

36:25

but it’s kind of at the basis for

36:26

reframe of mind just in general is that

36:30

i do not believe that anybody who feels

36:32

their own personal value ever wants to

36:35

take value away from anybody else and if

36:38

you feel your own self-love then you

36:41

don’t hate on anybody i think the weight

36:43

of the world being a better place is to

36:46

teach people to help them empower

36:48

themselves to love themselves to see

36:50

their value to work on their own

36:53

feelings and emotions and to claim

36:55

ownership of that because if you if you

36:57

value yourself you you don’t need to

36:59

other anybody else you you don’t need to

37:01

compete with anybody else you can

37:03

support other people i just don’t think

37:05

you can feel hate and love at the same

37:07

time so if we can teach people to find a

37:10

way to love themselves then there’s

37:12

going to be a whole lot less hate yeah

37:14

and i completely agree and also i want

37:16

to add to that you know like phrases

37:18

like that can very easily be you know

37:20

laughed at or turned into a laughing

37:22

point of oh you know you’re just being a

37:23

hippie you’re just being piece of love

37:25

and all that kind of

37:27

no like there is actually

37:29

great value in valuing yourself because

37:32

when you value yourself you don’t feel

37:35

like you have to act in certain ways to

37:37

get something and when we come from a

37:40

place of lack and we come from a place

37:41

of competition and come from a place of

37:44

they’ve got more than me then that only

37:47

breeds hatred so

37:48

if we can bring ourselves to a place

37:50

where we value ourselves and know that

37:52

you know what we are doing is ethical

37:55

and is responsible and is actually in

37:57

support of people and support of the

37:59

greater good for one of the term then

38:01

that’s the point i think we can actually

38:03

be satisfied with what we’ve got and

38:05

it’s not a case of just be grateful for

38:06

what you’ve got you know we don’t want

38:08

to kind of set up this whole it’s not

38:09

we’re not toxic positivity in this

38:11

either no no no exactly but we have to

38:13

come to a point where we do value

38:15

ourselves to the point where we know

38:17

that we are good enough that we know

38:18

that we are capable that we know that we

38:20

can learn something if we don’t know it

38:22

and to stop dumping on ourselves and

38:23

when we stop dumping on ourselves we

38:25

stop dumping on other people so in all

38:27

those years of working in commercial

38:29

radio you did

38:30

you mention that you’re related to

38:32

yourself as being heterosexual even back

38:34

when marriage equality was being

38:38

debated and that’s being generous in my

38:40

terminals yeah

38:41

did you feel at any point before that

38:43

though thinking back now you’ve got the

38:44

safety of hindsight and the safety to be

38:46

able to say actually there’s a point

38:48

where i might have been attracted to the

38:49

same sex did you ever feel moments of

38:52

that that you can remember yeah and in

38:54

hindsight now that’s

38:56

not something that i ever felt like i

38:59

could own while i was working in

39:01

commercial radio and i know that it’s

39:03

not about any individual in any way

39:05

you’ve worked because yeah i think in a

39:07

lot of places industries society there

39:11

is this underlying homophobia still that

39:13

you know we’ve seen a recent debate with

39:16

transphobia at its edge

39:18

so all of those things are still

39:20

bubbling underneath maybe this bit of

39:22

the interview with sally explains this

39:23

well

39:24

that starts from the top too like i

39:26

think of my experiences like having

39:28

worked in commercial media for 20 plus

39:31

years the the people who

39:32

the employees the people who are there

39:34

we want to make change a lot of us do we

39:37

want to

39:38

um you know we we want to tell diverse

39:40

stories but the pressure comes from

39:42

further up the chain of you know that

39:44

doesn’t relate to your average listener

39:46

your average demographic who we’re after

39:48

and there’s a lot of black and white in

39:50

that but in that same vein as well

39:52

though you know we used to have things

39:54

like diversity and inclusion studies

39:56

anonymously come out every year and

39:58

every year i’d answer well where are all

40:00

the people of color in this office

40:01

because in the whole time i’ve been

40:03

there i could only see two is that

40:05

really you know tick boxes

40:07

how many people do i publicly know that

40:10

identify

40:11

you know on the lgbtiq a plus scale

40:14

because again there was probably only

40:15

three but statistically there would have

40:18

been a lot more people myself included

40:21

as kind of a closet pansexual at the

40:23

time that didn’t feel comfortable

40:25

sharing that and therefore probably you

40:28

know because that culture from the top

40:30

is

40:30

even if it is of uh yes we’re we’ve got

40:34

to float in mardi gras so we must be

40:36

inclusive um

40:40

yeah but uh

40:41

don’t don’t speak about it don’t talk

40:43

about it

40:44

so it’s 2017 and the marriage equality

40:46

debate to use the term very generously

40:49

is is happening and there are plenty of

40:52

media identities who have same-sex

40:55

partners who even have children so what

40:57

made it different for you it wasn’t like

40:58

one person specifically ever said don’t

41:01

be gay you can’t be gay i mean it wasn’t

41:04

you’re right there were other people who

41:07

were out um quite a lot of other people

41:09

who were out something i find really

41:10

interesting is you know i make fun of

41:13

the alpha douche as being that um

41:15

cisgendered straight white middle-aged

41:17

man who’s in charge of things but you

41:19

know in the radio industry there are

41:20

actually middle-aged white men who

41:23

aren’t straight in charge of things what

41:25

perpetuates or what makes me feel like

41:27

that culture of not being gay is not

41:29

allowed when people who are you know gay

41:32

are in charge i think that someone’s

41:34

sexuality doesn’t mean that they’re an

41:38

ally to their group just because someone

41:40

is gay doesn’t mean that they protect

41:44

other members of the gay community i can

41:47

certainly certainly attest to that

41:49

different parts of the the rainbow

41:51

community as we kind of yeah

41:53

now yeah when people when there’s not a

41:55

lot of people from a particular group or

41:58

minority who succeed in something it’s

42:02

similar to what we were talking about

42:03

with suzanne that time where she said

42:06

that a lot of women who make it to

42:07

positions of power feel like they have

42:09

to be men in skirts and bust some balls

42:11

and act in that same kind of alpha

42:13

douchey way

42:14

i think that people when they’re from

42:16

marginalized groups sometimes get into a

42:18

position of power through their own

42:20

tenacity and um through the compromises

42:24

that they’ve had to make about

42:26

themselves

42:27

and their beliefs on the way to be able

42:29

to fit into that more mainstream mold

42:31

that when they do get into a position of

42:33

power they don’t use that power to

42:36

amplify or help the other people in

42:39

their community along the way they are

42:41

worried about keeping their power and so

42:44

they also other people maybe in less

42:46

overt ways or not even that they

42:49

contribute to the culture and make the

42:51

culture worse but they don’t try and

42:53

change the culture even when they get

42:55

into a position of power it’s dangerous

42:57

for them to challenge that because they

42:58

are in the minority and yes

43:01

one vocal voice is seen as

43:04

an activist and someone who’s dangerous

43:06

and someone who will change things for

43:08

the worse you know like i remember

43:10

actually when i started in darwin

43:15

sure

43:16

okay

43:18

it’s almost a double heart moment

43:19

because we’re going back not just

43:22

no not just 12 months but 12 years

43:27

exactly this is a 12 year jump not a 12

43:29

month jump so

43:31

when we first met you knew that i was

43:32

gay you know i was at the point in my

43:35

journey of life where i i was out i

43:38

wasn’t hiding it anybody who asked i

43:40

willingly told i didn’t go out you know

43:42

announcing it from the rooftops or

43:44

anything because i didn’t climb steps

43:46

that well i still don’t and that’s only

43:48

because i’m lazy it’s not a gay

43:49

stereotype gays don’t climb steps no not

43:51

at all i’m not trying to be able at

43:53

either so i um oh yeah i arrived and i

43:57

was going on shift onto the drive

43:59

program and i was you know i started to

44:00

toss around a few ideas for things like

44:02

it could be fun and

44:04

um

44:05

i know what you’re going to say and i

44:06

know it’s not going to paint me in a

44:07

very good light so i’d like to preface

44:09

it

44:11

i’d like to preface it with um

44:14

i was 26 when we had this conversation i

44:17

think yes you were 26 and also it harks

44:20

back to you know a possible unconscious

44:23

desire to be the man in the skirt or the

44:26

meat oh yes

44:29

the previous episodes that i’ve done

44:31

things in the past that would be

44:32

considered the ball busting man in the

44:34

skirt thing and i think you’re about to

44:36

discuss one of the things that i have

44:38

said you were nasty i’ve got to say that

44:41

you would you’ve never been nasty but

44:43

my criticism is polite you know and

44:45

through the conversation it became

44:47

apparent that you were telling me that

44:48

it wasn’t a good idea to be gay on air

44:51

that the station

44:52

because of its listenership because of

44:54

the target demographic didn’t have space

44:57

for a gay personality on there because

45:00

it didn’t fit the branding of the

45:01

station i took it because you know if 12

45:05

months ago i was in a place where i

45:06

wasn’t actually

45:08

saying what was important to me in

45:09

standing up for it i certainly wasn’t

45:11

going to do it 12 years ago when i was

45:13

in my first commercial radio gig so i

45:15

swallowed it

45:16

because if i was 26 year old louise you

45:18

were 36 year old andy at this point too

45:20

yeah yeah that’s right yeah exactly we

45:22

were both spring chickens back then

45:24

we were in a different place of our

45:26

journey i was exceptionally grateful to

45:28

have been given the opportunity to be on

45:30

air in such a great market on commercial

45:33

radios so what you said was correct

45:35

because we had a listening audience that

45:37

we needed to to cater to and going by

45:40

the demographic and the target of that

45:42

audience they were likely to hold

45:44

certain beliefs or certain values and

45:46

those values really only extended out as

45:49

far as we would be in the feel-good

45:51

stations so having a big gay bow

45:54

in the little brain i never said that

45:57

gabo by the way

45:59

before before the daily mail picks up an

46:01

article saying a former former radio

46:04

host called co-host gabo

46:07

yeah yeah i’m taking license here but

46:09

but the longer the sure it is you know

46:11

to have an over the top stereotypical

46:14

gay personality

46:16

which i was which i’ve never been anyway

46:18

but that’s beside the point but i that

46:21

it wouldn’t have fitted the sound of the

46:23

station overall so i’m sure this happens

46:26

with any radio announcer because they

46:28

have to think about their demographic

46:30

and who they’re actually talking to but

46:32

there are certain elements of their

46:33

personality that you just won’t hear um

46:36

because the advertisers will pull their

46:38

money if it goes against their values

46:40

that’s for sure yeah i’ve i’ve said this

46:42

to you before in a non-recorded podcast

46:44

conversation but i am sorry that i ever

46:46

did that oh i know um we will pass that

46:52

we’re in business together now honey i’m

46:54

sorry that i did a lot of things to a

46:55

lot of people that uh you know that

46:57

again 26 year old louise did because she

46:59

felt like she had to prove something

47:01

because i think when i talk about that

47:03

person um that that reaches the top and

47:06

then doesn’t support the other people

47:07

from their own community like that would

47:09

have been me then

47:10

i’m talking about what would this have

47:12

been 2008 2009 but also like how are you

47:16

supposed to have that kind of wisdom at

47:18

26 years of age well some people’s

47:20

ability some people are smart i guess

47:22

somebody okay people who didn’t repress

47:25

their sexuality for 40 years

47:27

might have yeah but without dumping on

47:29

yourself though like if the culture

47:31

itself was such that you know it didn’t

47:33

expect you to uphold that value would

47:35

you be upholding it you know like and

47:38

not coming to individuals again but if

47:40

through a whole industry this whole

47:43

sense can kind of trickle down that well

47:45

the most important thing is that we only

47:47

speak to people with this value this

47:49

value and this value and we don’t

47:51

mention this other stuff because that’s

47:52

just too hard i want to add as well that

47:55

came from a place of actually feeling

47:57

like i was trying to protect you i

47:59

didn’t want you to get attacked and i

48:01

wanted you to be successful and i had

48:04

already had several years of experience

48:07

knowing how much more difficult that

48:08

would be

48:09

if you were the gay bow um

48:12

because it’s got a limited life span

48:14

that kind of personality in that kind of

48:17

and also not wanting you to become a

48:19

stereotype and a um

48:22

like a token woman but you’re the token

48:24

gay and the only thing you can ever

48:25

comment on is reality tv and go oh my

48:28

god yes go kim go you know you know like

48:31

it’s

48:32

it doesn’t value you as a person um

48:34

correct and in 2009 as i’m now told at

48:38

2009

48:40

like forget 2022 we live in an entirely

48:44

different time now um oh yeah 2009 this

48:48

was like i think even just as the first

48:50

iphone was coming out right um yeah it

48:52

was the attitudes around in 2009

48:56

regarding the expectations of the lgbt

49:00

iqa plus community and the only gay we

49:03

saw really represented on tv was the

49:06

will and grace gay yeah it was it was

49:08

still there in my mind it wasn’t because

49:10

you know i kind of knew what went before

49:13

me people say that we we stand on on the

49:15

shoulders of giants and certainly you

49:18

know from what i’d learned when i came

49:20

out and through the people i’d met after

49:22

coming out i knew what had gone before

49:24

me as far as all of the activism and all

49:26

of the protests and all of the

49:28

hatred that had been sort of slung at my

49:30

community my community up until

49:33

well it still does still does to be

49:35

honest

49:36

like to me i didn’t have the sense of

49:37

that and actually it was a very good

49:39

thing for you to be able to be there and

49:42

protect me in that way because had i

49:44

gone on with

49:46

a sense that people will accept me for

49:49

whoever i am anyway it’s still

49:51

it that’s still not so you know people

49:54

will still try to tell me that i’m not

49:58

good enough for one reason or another

50:00

some people will still even ask me which

50:02

one’s the man in our relationship or

50:04

which one is the woman in one of the

50:05

questions i phrased to sally when we

50:08

heard it back we went oh

50:09

that sounds a bit off but but i stand by

50:12

it you know i think that in a lot of

50:13

these arguments a lot of these news

50:15

stories we hear a lot of the commentary

50:16

we hear the people who are most

50:18

self-righteous are so obsessed with what

50:20

people do in the bedroom and they are so

50:22

obsessed with what people have got

50:24

between their legs and what they do with

50:26

them it is just the most hypocritical

50:29

position that i can think of for people

50:32

to have those sorts of points of view

50:35

and then try and turn it around to say

50:37

that the other people are the deviants

50:39

when they’re just minding their own

50:40

business trying to live their life like

50:41

anybody else and to love someone their

50:45

way in a consensual way in a loving way

50:48

to be told no you’re wrong like we’re

50:50

talking very specifically about media

50:52

and we’re now talking about media in

50:53

2009 um i’m trying to get across that

50:57

this is something that is happening from

50:58

our background it may not be about an

51:01

industry that everybody can relate to

51:03

but this is happening in so many

51:06

industries yeah yeah there is that

51:09

covert feeling that it’s not okay to be

51:11

you in whatever way you know whether

51:13

that’s

51:14

sexuality whether it’s culture whether

51:16

it’s

51:17

disability

51:18

you know if there is a sense that you

51:20

cannot be your whole self in whatever

51:23

way that means then

51:25

people don’t feel comfortable

51:27

challenging that status quo in an

51:29

environment where they are already a

51:31

minority figure there was no way that i

51:33

was going to say to my boss because you

51:36

were my boss and you had a boss above

51:38

you so i wasn’t certainly wasn’t going

51:39

to say it to them

51:41

but i was not going to walk in there and

51:42

say well look i’m gay just deal with it

51:44

i’m going to say what i like because

51:46

you know i came in accepting certain

51:47

rules as well i came into a new job and

51:50

i was learning the ropes in the new

51:51

industry for me and i wanted to do the

51:54

very best i could and i had to respect

51:55

certain rules because really you know

51:58

and this also comes back to what would i

52:00

know but realistically what did i know

52:02

at that point about commercial radio and

52:04

how it worked and how audiences and

52:06

branding and marketing around all those

52:08

sorts of things happened so

52:10

of course i was going to toe the line of

52:11

course i wasn’t going to be

52:14

anything larger than what was required

52:17

and that’s my choice

52:18

that was my choice

52:20

i could have gone no that and moved

52:22

back to sydney but i didn’t and we make

52:24

these choices to compromise ourselves

52:25

because

52:26

we care i think sometimes we care so

52:28

much more about the thing that we’re

52:30

doing and what that means to us than

52:32

about the our own values

52:34

um and that’s something we have to kind

52:36

of come to ourselves another aside i

52:40

once had a intern lovely person and they

52:43

really really really wanted to get into

52:46

radio and then they did i gave them a

52:48

great reference and i gave them as much

52:50

experience as i could give them they

52:52

ended up getting a job in regional radio

52:54

and they called me up crying because

52:57

their probation area period wasn’t

52:58

extended so they weren’t fired but it

53:01

was because unlike you they didn’t toe

53:03

the line and they were openly gay yeah

53:06

they didn’t fit the sound of the station

53:09

yeah which is a real shitty thing you

53:12

know

53:12

like i i don’t know like i’ve got a very

53:15

different kind of perspective on it now

53:17

and

53:18

any advertiser that came to me and said

53:20

well we’re gonna pull our dollars from

53:22

you because you are gay or whatever i

53:24

would say well take your money i

53:26

don’t care i don’t want it because

53:27

you’re not important to me and by the

53:28

way neither is your products there are

53:30

plenty of others out there that i can

53:31

get which are different because i don’t

53:33

need your bigotry behind your dollars

53:36

and i suppose this conversation about

53:38

culture isn’t just about gayness i at

53:41

some point found myself in these jobs

53:43

protecting people

53:45

for expressing their own opinions when

53:47

you you say that thing about you know

53:49

i’ll take my advertising dollars

53:50

elsewhere well

53:51

i i had to many times stand up and say

53:54

no that like advertising dollars doesn’t

53:57

um control editorial content there have

54:00

been things in the past where you know

54:02

i’ve ended up in arguments with people

54:04

um

54:05

higher than myself because

54:08

advertisers haven’t necessarily been

54:10

happy that let’s say a hypothetical

54:13

scandal happened and it involved a large

54:16

company

54:17

not doing the right thing and then it

54:20

was reported on in the news it was also

54:23

discussed by the hosts of say you know

54:25

one of the shows i i had was asked

54:28

sometimes to bury stories don’t run

54:30

those stories because

54:33

they’re a client i can specifically

54:35

remember having that for some other

54:38

content makers who had made some

54:40

comments not untruthful not defamatory

54:43

nothing like that but had made some

54:44

personal comments about what they

54:46

thought of a situation that was topical

54:48

but because it was about an advertiser

54:50

the advertiser wanted an apology they

54:52

want to basically say we’re going to

54:54

pull our money if you don’t put us in a

54:56

positive light we will do whatever the

54:58

hell we like and

55:00

expect you not to pass negative comments

55:02

about it there’s a couple more stories i

55:04

want to add before we move on to the

55:05

next part of this andy if that’s okay

55:07

with you

55:08

these are stories aimed at

55:10

a generalization of what media culture

55:13

is like slash was like i don’t know

55:15

haven’t been in it for two years i can

55:17

only go by my past experience and how

55:19

this culture is probably similar in and

55:22

most likely similar in other industries

55:24

so one x amount of years prior before

55:27

the marriage equality survey i had a

55:30

heated debate with somebody who was in

55:32

charge about marriage equality they were

55:35

adamant that marriage should only be

55:38

between a man and a woman and anything

55:40

else was

55:41

disgusting and i was very heated in my

55:44

response to that and advocating for

55:47

equality it was not a fun argument and

55:49

it completely changed the way i looked

55:50

at that person because up until that

55:52

point i you know i really respected them

55:53

but so fast forward to 2017 that same

55:57

person popped on their social media and

55:59

said

56:00

i support marriage equality and if you

56:02

don’t then get the off my page and

56:06

what yeah well obviously someone had a

56:08

change of heart over that period and

56:10

it’s great they had a change of heart

56:11

but i would have loved to have heard the

56:13

story about how you went from arguing

56:14

with me about same sex marriage being a

56:16

sin to get the off my page because

56:18

that story of growth would have been

56:20

much more convincing to people who

56:22

haven’t yet come around that than just

56:24

off my page

56:25

um yeah yeah completely especially

56:28

saying that was a real formative thing

56:29

for me x amount of years prior when they

56:32

were someone who was in charge of a lot

56:35

of things and they had such strong views

56:37

against homosexuality but you know what

56:40

maybe in some ways you were the catalyst

56:42

for them to start thinking about that

56:44

because

56:45

you know i think about some of the

56:46

conversations i have even recently with

56:48

some people about different things and i

56:50

never go in wanting to convince somebody

56:52

to change their minds necessarily you

56:54

know i’ll try and give them my

56:56

perspective and why i think a certain

56:57

way and i’m always open to changing my

56:59

mind as well but i i guess when i feel

57:02

passionately about something and i still

57:04

can’t convince someone of my perspective

57:07

then

57:08

there comes a point which i’m sure you

57:10

did as well there’s a point where you

57:11

have to walk away yeah it’s exasperating

57:15

yeah but perhaps that point that you’ve

57:17

made causes them to actually when things

57:19

have cooled down to think okay well

57:21

obviously they’re being passionate about

57:23

this for a reason maybe there’s

57:25

something i can read to find out why

57:27

it’s like when we were talking to

57:28

jacinta carboon about the impact of

57:30

inequality in the workplace for women

57:32

and in society in the broader scale for

57:35

women

57:36

and how she had to take that person on a

57:39

journey it was a man we can say it was a

57:40

man because she said it was a man she

57:41

had to take one of her male colleagues

57:43

on a journey and say okay so

57:46

are you okay with

57:48

your daughter earning half as much or

57:50

you know a percentage of what female

57:52

counterpart earns up with the same

57:54

qualifications or we shouldn’t have to

57:56

ask jenny if it’s okay though like no we

57:59

shouldn’t have to check with jenny first

58:01

honestly no we shouldn’t by any means

58:03

not by a long shot sometimes we have to

58:05

use whatever means we can know to wake

58:07

people up to the fact that what they’re

58:09

saying isn’t necessarily fully thought

58:11

out so the conversation we had with

58:13

sally last episode is so important to me

58:16

because sally’s a trans woman and not

58:18

because she’s a trans woman but because

58:20

she’s talking about diversity inclusion

58:22

now still these stories that we’re

58:24

sharing uh you know from a long time ago

58:27

um

58:28

it’s it’s still going on could you

58:29

imagine with all of this stuff

58:32

we’ve been talking about here that

58:33

happened in 2009 for us and

58:36

don’t be gay in 2009 i could have never

58:39

employed a trans person could you

58:41

imagine i did employ a trans person

58:44

after i left

58:45

darwin in the position i was in and

58:48

there’s really not much to say about

58:50

that because they’re a person

58:52

they’re a person and they did a great

58:54

job and they brought amazing skills to

58:57

the job that i employed them for but

58:58

geez did i see some bigotry around the

59:01

ranks even to the point of one of the

59:04

people

59:05

that actually

59:06

also worked for

59:08

the station dead naming that person

59:11

because they’d known them before they

59:13

transitioned and

59:15

yeah

59:16

you know like that’s 12 years ago now um

59:20

it still happens though i’m not just

59:21

talking about trans issues or gay issues

59:25

racism yeah you know yeah there are some

59:27

awful things being said about aboriginal

59:30

and torres strait islander people there

59:32

are terrible things about migrants or

59:35

whatever label we want to kind of bring

59:37

down to someone like a refugee who’s

59:39

been locked up for nine years there’s

59:41

all sorts of stuff going on

59:43

still and i wonder if we will ever wake

59:46

up whether we’ll ever reach that kind of

59:49

you know let the sunshine in moment that

59:51

they had in the 60s apparently

59:54

obviously i thought well that looks good

59:55

and i came back down into this lifetime

59:57

and

59:58

60:01

it was a lie it was a lie

60:03

[Laughter]

60:05

26 year old louise i think became maybe

60:08

28 year old louise

60:10

or 29 year old louise however old she

60:12

was um and i could not do that anymore i

60:16

hadn’t until we started our own business

60:18

and i suppose it’s easy to call

60:20

ourselves leaders when there’s only two

60:22

of us and our studio audience of felines

60:25

and we keep leading each other astray

60:26

but yeah

60:28

but you know what that last the last

60:31

time that i was a manager i couldn’t do

60:34

it anymore because i

60:37

felt like i had to protect people so

60:39

much from the culture not just the lgbt

60:43

qia plus community um no women even

60:46

people of a certain age you know they

60:48

they get bullied by other groups so

60:51

there’s all sorts of

60:53

discrimination that goes on definitely

60:55

some ageism and also the inequity of

60:58

people further up making a

61:01

lot of money a lot a lot of money and

61:04

making a lot of money off your creative

61:06

talent and then telling you that they

61:08

can’t pass that on to you and not only

61:10

can they not pass that on to you but

61:12

you’re going to get paid minimum wage

61:15

and also you need to work all those

61:17

hours for free because if you don’t do

61:20

it then somebody else will because

61:21

everybody wants this job

61:23

everybody wants and there’s not

61:25

enough opportunities so we’re going to

61:27

take your creativity and your pattern

61:29

and get everything out of that we can

61:32

for 38 grand a year you want to work 38

61:34

grand a year and work 15 hour days have

61:36

i got the job for you

61:38

that’s so glamorous you’re gonna love it

61:41

it speaks to the culture of these

61:43

industries doesn’t it because and not

61:45

just media this is not just media this

61:47

is across other industries look at how

61:50

at the moment even with

61:52

nurses you know how you’ve got

61:54

governments coming out and saying oh yes

61:56

we really appreciate all the nurses and

61:58

all they’ve done for us especially over

61:59

the last two years

62:01

pay them yeah clapping doesn’t

62:03

help a payroll i can stand in my

62:06

driveway for hours clapping all

62:08

i’m going to get is sore hands and need

62:10

a nurse pay them

62:11

put some people through training and

62:13

start putting more resources into health

62:15

care give them money you know

62:17

what clap as you give them the pay rise

62:19

well done here’s an extra you know 20

62:21

grand and then also do it for some

62:23

teachers as well yeah yeah while

62:25

you’re at it let’s make a list let’s

62:28

let’s make a list of all the people in

62:29

society who are over and it’s

62:31

everybody except the one percent in

62:33

power anyway the patriarchy

62:37

you said we weren’t going to say

62:38

the patriarchy every episode look you

62:40

know but we get ourselves to these

62:42

little states don’t we i’m in a tizzy

62:44

i’m in a tizzy and i’m not even halfway

62:46

through our run sheet here

62:48

i know i want to bring it back i just

62:50

know i want to bring it back to so that

62:52

that time where i was your boss was the

62:54

last time that i was somebody’s direct

62:56

boss like that because i left that job

62:59

feeling like i couldn’t i didn’t want to

63:01

be in charge of anyone anymore because i

63:03

was disappointing people that were below

63:05

me who i couldn’t look after and i felt

63:08

like i

63:08

i really wanted to look after them

63:10

because i saw me in them and i saw how

63:12

much they cared and i saw their passion

63:15

for what they were doing

63:17

um

63:18

but also further up the chain i saw the

63:20

exploitation of an industry and how

63:23

people would work so hard

63:26

to do what they love doing to be

63:29

rewarded in pittance

63:33

to have to hide themselves to have to

63:36

tone themselves down to be a brand for

63:40

somebody instead of their own unique

63:42

person um and that that pressure of

63:45

being in the middle was kind of you

63:48

know it is kind of little

63:50

management is no place for the

63:51

faint-hearted because you’re

63:53

disappointing people all over the place

63:55

above you below you beside you i’ve

63:57

tried to advocate up in my life as much

63:59

as i can

64:01

but there’s only so far you can advocate

64:04

up

64:05

well yeah

64:07

you know it clearly this is something

64:08

that that really sort of touches your

64:10

heart as well and

64:13

it’s touched mind and yeah i speak about

64:15

it without being able to be affected by

64:17

it probably because my response to it is

64:19

anxiety you know like when i feel like i

64:22

can’t be all that i need to be or feel

64:25

that i need to be for everybody that is

64:27

in my team or everybody

64:29

that i’m trying to impress with my

64:32

team’s performance then i get incredibly

64:34

anxious

64:35

and that’s something that i don’t want

64:37

you know that’s something that leads to

64:38

burnout it it does lead to burnout

64:42

and it did lead to burnout um for me a

64:46

lot of times actually i i wonder now if

64:49

some of the episodes i had called

64:51

depressive episodes of burnout

64:54

look you know and i think you know

64:56

just as much as anybody else in in

64:58

whatever they’re doing

65:00

sometimes we become a product of the

65:02

industry that we’re in you know but

65:04

you’ve found a way out of that yeah

65:07

at that point all that time ago where i

65:09

decided i wasn’t going to be a manager

65:11

anymore

65:12

i thought

65:14

i really want to be a radio announcer

65:16

and create and i love

65:19

the radio

65:21

um and

65:22

if i can just do it for myself

65:25

and not have to be in charge of anybody

65:27

then i can weather that on my own do you

65:30

know what i mean i can

65:32

because when i left darwin i

65:35

didn’t have another job lined up and i

65:37

just could not do it anymore and i

65:40

actually thought at that time

65:41

is this it is this where

65:44

there’s no more career for me because i

65:46

felt that at that time is this the end

65:48

of my radio career because you don’t

65:51

leave a job in radio without having

65:52

another one lined up because anyone will

65:54

tell you very quickly that you shouldn’t

65:55

even go on holidays because when you

65:57

come back someone’s going to take your

65:59

job which

66:00

as we discussed in a previous episode

66:02

they did

66:03

so

66:06

that happened um

66:08

and and so at that point i thought we

66:10

know

66:10

that might be the end of that am i okay

66:12

with that and

66:14

i wasn’t but i did it because i could

66:17

couldn’t do the alternative um and in

66:20

that case i didn’t burn any bridges or

66:22

explode them on the way out so it just

66:24

still collected the kerosene honey

66:26

[Laughter]

66:28

i was still building up the kerosene

66:31

so i you know it wasn’t that long before

66:33

i had people calling me up asking me if

66:35

i’d come work for them so i think

66:38

i was un unemployed at that stage for

66:41

like it was three months and i really

66:42

ended up just taking a holiday in

66:44

between jobs is what it kind of became

66:46

but i did decide that continuing in the

66:48

industry i wouldn’t be a manager because

66:52

of those things and if i just

66:54

i can just put all my resources into

66:58

making me the best version of me

67:00

so that i can use my power and influence

67:04

to help other people and in the best way

67:07

that i can do it and that will be enough

67:09

and i

67:10

i know the culture of what i’m in and i

67:14

understand what they’re like and if i

67:16

can just

67:17

play by enough rules

67:19

that i can be successful and get to the

67:22

top maybe i can create change or

67:25

find a way to just

67:27

deal with it because also this is the

67:29

only thing that i thought i wanted to do

67:31

at that point

67:33

and i had

67:34

if we go back to episode three tied my

67:37

entire identity to being a radio person

67:42

it was my salvation for depression for

67:45

you know

67:45

those suicidal ideations on the floor of

67:48

the shower

67:49

so

67:51

i don’t know what i’m getting at anymore

67:54

well i think you know what what’s

67:55

essentially happened is that

67:57

for one

67:59

of a better term you were kind of beaten

68:01

by a system you know like you

68:04

you

68:05

did your very best to bring

68:07

the best of yourself into the role that

68:09

you got

68:10

yet you still had those other

68:12

expectations to meet which went against

68:14

your values yeah

68:16

and so

68:18

at that point when you stepped out of

68:19

that you were saying essentially look

68:23

it’s a big bit of my identity

68:24

but jesus christ this doesn’t actually

68:26

make me happy in the slightest because

68:29

it’s not actually aligning with anything

68:31

that’s important to me or maybe not

68:32

that’s probably a little bit dramatic

68:34

because i’m a gay boy but but you know

68:36

it’s not aligning completely with my

68:38

values so i need to get out it’s not

68:41

aligning enough and if it’s not aligning

68:43

enough and someone else won’t come to

68:45

the party of helping it align

68:49

then what else is there yeah which

68:53

clearly i’m traumatized

68:55

yeah and we’ll say get some perspective

68:58

until we talk about these things and we

68:59

wouldn’t have so much drama because this

69:02

is

69:03

some drama here ready

69:05

but this is

69:06

[Laughter]

69:08

well that would be talking positivity

69:10

saying that there we go you know that’ll

69:12

be toxic positivity saying that because

69:14

toxic positivity says it’s not okay to

69:16

get upset about anything yeah but you

69:18

know the the great loss for

69:21

the industry that you left is that they

69:24

had a leader in place that would have

69:26

been able to bring in a really beautiful

69:30

leadership style into an industry and

69:32

show people how to lead well and to lead

69:35

differently

69:38

i know but i’m upset about it now

69:41

oh my god

69:43

um

69:45

maybe i’ll get my together while we

69:46

listen to this bit from suzanne mercier

69:48

then

69:49

who helped us realise

69:51

that as leaders and managers we learn

69:53

from the style of those which we’ve

69:55

worked under

69:56

when i was about 17 and i was working in

69:59

an apartment store and there was the

70:01

after sales office and because of the

70:03

times that it was in the 80s there was

70:05

all women that worked in that office and

70:07

the woman who was in charge was someone

70:09

who was renowned for striking fear into

70:11

everybody and i was petrified her as

70:13

well because of everybody else’s opinion

70:14

and then she must have picked up on it

70:16

because she turned to me and said you’re

70:17

scared of me aren’t you wow and i looked

70:19

her in the eye i said no i’m not scared

70:21

of you and then continue with the

70:22

conversation and then she just softened

70:24

completely

70:25

so it seemed like that there was a wall

70:27

that she was putting up there because

70:29

she felt that she had to she was seen

70:30

for who she really was that she couldn’t

70:32

be an effective manager but she was the

70:34

loveliest person but nobody could see

70:36

past her her style of management because

70:39

that seemed to be what she felt she

70:41

needed to do well and often we learn our

70:43

style of management from the previous

70:44

manager that we worked with so if her

70:46

style of management was learned from a

70:48

male manager then that’s entirely you

70:51

know she thought she had to do that so

70:53

um yeah i can understand that and and

70:55

how perceptive of her that she

70:56

recognized it and changed what she was

70:58

doing with me not with anybody else

71:02

i cracked her oh there you go did anyone

71:05

else get the benefit of it possibly i

71:08

think we softened some things along the

71:09

way

71:10

well i think i think also people get

71:11

into you know management and leadership

71:13

roles and it takes them a while to find

71:16

their feet because that’s a whole new

71:17

game for them they’re in uncertain

71:18

territory and and often the way that we

71:21

handle uncertainty is to go into control

71:24

and to reduce our vulnerability we you

71:26

know we adapt or adopt certain behaviors

71:28

and and those sorts of things and they

71:30

certainly aren’t at least in that space

71:32

um you know particularly good for people

71:34

that are sort of in the in the role or

71:37

at the level that you were before or at

71:38

the level below you so yeah it’s an

71:40

interesting it’s just such a complex

71:42

area isn’t it i find it interesting that

71:44

people think that women are more

71:45

aggressive when they get to the top

71:47

because from my own experience i’ve had

71:50

quite a few

71:51

female managers and leaders and they

71:54

have by far been the best leaders that

71:55

i’ve had in my career well thank you

71:57

andy

72:00

i love that

72:01

[Laughter]

72:04

there’s that lovely expression that if

72:06

you if this miracle occurs within five

72:08

kilometers claim it

72:12

but i’ve always found that that women

72:14

actually bring a lot more of themselves

72:17

i tend to find leadership more natural

72:19

coming from women because they connect

72:21

more with people in my experience

72:23

whereas men tend to connect more with

72:26

the task yes well that that is in

72:28

general true i think that um i think

72:31

that there are a lot of men who are

72:33

starting to embrace the more feminine

72:35

side of leadership which is much more

72:37

concerned about people so there’s a lot

72:39

of good men out there wanting to find

72:40

that balance

72:42

but yeah i think that

72:43

there’s the old double standard that

72:45

what’s seen as assertive in a guy is

72:47

seen as aggressive in a woman and that’s

72:49

society if you ask women many of the

72:51

women have the same response so she’s

72:53

aggressive um but in actual fact she’s

72:55

just doing something that a guy would do

72:56

and it’s just seen very differently so

72:58

yeah i think we still got a lot of

72:59

unconscious bias to sort out no question

73:02

one of my earliest managing jobs because

73:04

i started managing people when i was 23

73:06

or so in the interview the

73:09

alpha douche that was the interviewer

73:12

specifically told me that if he gives

73:14

this job to a woman he doesn’t want to

73:16

pioneer i don’t want you to go out and

73:18

pioneer anything you know i want to give

73:20

this to somebody who’ll do the job right

73:22

and not make this all about being a

73:23

woman right further to that in roles

73:26

where i’ve been managing large teams of

73:28

people especially where people have been

73:30

older than me and with a lot of

73:31

experience i mean i think that imposter

73:34

syndrome has certainly crept in there

73:36

um because you know they’re more

73:37

experienced but that doesn’t necessarily

73:39

mean that they you know have more

73:41

creativity or the right perspective for

73:44

the job

73:45

but i i would say that as a 23 year old

73:48

doing that different than an almost 40

73:50

year old without this perspective

73:52

i felt like i had to mold myself to be

73:54

more of i suppose more of that masculine

73:57

energy in you know take that on so as

74:00

much as i want to take andy’s compliment

74:01

he was probably talking about somebody

74:03

else because

74:05

absolutely you know that

74:06

i’m a bit of a ball buster

74:10

because i think that in that i had to

74:12

harden myself

74:14

to compete on that level and i think

74:17

that was you know one of the things this

74:19

is turning into my therapy session but

74:21

one of the things that turned me away

74:23

from being a manager of a large group is

74:25

kind of

74:26

you know having those two masters having

74:27

all those people underneath you who you

74:29

as uh me as a woman wanted to lift up

74:32

and do the best for but then having

74:34

those masters above that saw them as

74:36

numbers on a spreadsheet

74:37

finding that balance i don’t think

74:39

there’s a question i think i’m just

74:41

venting that’s great you’re absolutely

74:42

right and um i think that what’s really

74:45

powerful of what about what you’ve just

74:46

said is that it it represents that there

74:49

are so many different styles of feminine

74:50

leadership there’s not one

74:52

and and you have to actually meet people

74:54

where they are to change the the um the

74:56

story anyway so that you can you know

74:59

share with them another way to do things

75:01

so i think that if you if you were to do

75:03

that you probably wouldn’t have got

75:04

ahead and i i think back on my career

75:07

and i don’t think that i had that

75:09

bolshee sort of approach and i i would

75:11

actually not put myself out there in

75:12

fact you know when i was in my early

75:14

days of running my own business i sort

75:16

of hoped that i’d planted the seeds and

75:17

they were all going to come to me so it

75:18

took me ages to get that i have to

75:20

actually put myself out there it wasn’t

75:22

comfortable at all so i think that

75:24

people who work inside the corporate

75:25

environment they have to be stronger

75:27

they have to actually you know be able

75:29

to stand up and and give an opinion and

75:32

you know play the game to some degree so

75:34

it doesn’t suit everybody you know it’s

75:36

just you’ve got to find your way in and

75:38

place to be a leader

75:40

i suppose the thing is we don’t want to

75:42

play by those rules anymore because look

75:43

what happens to us

75:45

well i mean to us to me personally if i

75:48

play by those rules because it ends up

75:51

with me burning out

75:53

and

75:54

getting depressed and having anxiety

75:57

attacks and feeling like i’m

75:59

compromising every inch of myself

76:02

to play in somebody else’s game who i

76:05

will never win and i can only shift the

76:08

needle ever so incrementally before

76:10

somebody else knocks the needle back

76:12

again yeah so we have a chance with what

76:15

we’re doing to step out of that mold and

76:17

create something for ourselves with our

76:20

rules our way

76:22

so what actually are those rules well

76:24

i’m glad you asked i don’t know either

76:26

you know and

76:28

this is the point of the story this is

76:30

you know harp time happening over 12

76:32

months ago

76:35

[Applause]

76:37

harking back to even i don’t know how

76:39

far we are into this episode at the

76:41

moment but right at the beginning with

76:43

our sketch

76:44

12 months ago i started saying something

76:47

to the effect of you know we don’t live

76:49

in a vacuum yes because it became very

76:51

clear to me at that point that you know

76:53

as much as we try to sanitize our

76:55

environments

76:56

you know as much as we build our echo

76:58

chambers to suit our own beliefs and our

77:00

values we’d line our little castles with

77:02

people who agree with us um sooner or

77:05

later we need to interact with the

77:06

outside world you know and on top of

77:08

that

77:09

different events that we face can also

77:11

trigger the same old feelings and

77:13

patterns of behavior how many times did

77:15

i say to you of a morning i’ve done some

77:16

journaling this morning

77:20

because something had come up that i

77:22

thought about with relation to my family

77:24

and i just i got it out but

77:26

you know as much as i tried to put on

77:28

that toxic positivity brave face and

77:30

said no all right yeah no i’m good i’m

77:31

like yeah yeah now time is past and

77:33

water under the bridge and blah blah

77:34

blah no no no

77:36

because

77:37

it’s not linear it’s cyclical it’s not

77:39

even cyclical it’s it’s i don’t know

77:41

what it is it’s it’s almost like that

77:43

multiverse kind of theory you can get

77:46

hit by it anywhere at any time

77:48

it’s a multiverse of trauma yeah exactly

77:51

a bit like grief you know like because

77:54

you know let’s not forget that during

77:55

that patch of time as well i was really

77:57

still

77:58

you know in early stages of grief around

78:01

losing my dad it was year in but still

78:04

grief has got no time no it’s great it

78:06

doesn’t expire it doesn’t start within a

78:08

certain time it doesn’t end within a

78:10

certain time in fact you know i

78:14

i still think about my mum who i lost

78:17

you know nine months after moving to

78:18

darwin and get emotional when i think

78:21

about her because i miss her

78:23

you know and i miss my dad and i miss

78:26

all of these people that

78:27

that were important to me when i was

78:29

growing up and are still important to me

78:31

but they’re not with me anymore yeah so

78:34

it’s not

78:35

something that just leaves us you know

78:37

seven-year-old me asked my grandmother

78:40

you know when are things going to get

78:41

back to normal this is after she’d lost

78:42

her daughter my auntie well nothing’s

78:44

going to get back to normal and

78:45

everyone’s going to be happy again and

78:47

her reaction was to my mum how do you

78:49

get this kid out of here he’s stupid or

78:51

whatever i didn’t know anything about

78:53

grief i didn’t know anything about death

78:55

i didn’t all i knew was that before i

78:57

was born my grandfather had died and

78:59

they all seemed pretty happy not that he

79:01

died but they all seemed to be getting

79:03

on life pretty well all i wanted to know

79:05

at that point was when things were going

79:06

to return to some sense of normality

79:08

much like people are saying now after

79:10

the pandemic when are we going to get

79:12

back to normal well things have changed

79:16

life changes and we need to be able to

79:18

adapt

79:19

grief is a part of that and in a lot of

79:21

ways

79:23

we don’t live in a vacuum we don’t live

79:24

in a vacuum we when we come to work we

79:27

bring all of those other things with us

79:29

oh bring your whole self to work like

79:31

the authenticity catchphrase says but

79:34

jeez if you think you you can show it if

79:36

you think you can actually say something

79:38

about it bring it by all means but don’t

79:40

do anything with it could you imagine if

79:41

um if we brought our whole selves to

79:43

work and instead of

79:45

us unleashing our trauma on this podcast

79:47

this is what we put on the radio

79:50

well i’ll tell you what i would make

79:51

some interesting headlines and we’ll

79:53

probably get like a good good

79:54

listenership of course you know we know

79:56

that people do like a bit of a salacious

79:58

conversation

79:59

salacious

80:00

i can’t imagine it would have gone down

80:02

with management maybe we can send that

80:04

out in the press release for this one

80:05

see if someone picks it up listen to two

80:07

former radio hosts cry about their life

80:12

all this discussion about work um not

80:15

our work now uh someone else’s work but

80:16

i think this is probably a really good

80:18

time to introduce jane madden board

80:20

member for the black dog institute and

80:21

chair for the fred hollows foundation

80:23

and with a public service career of at

80:26

least 30 years where she’s been in some

80:28

of the most senior levels of government

80:30

she knows a lot about mental health in

80:32

the workplace so how has the

80:34

conversation about mental health changed

80:36

in that time

80:37

i had a career in government for over 30

80:40

years before now working as a board

80:43

director and

80:44

also running my own advisory firm and

80:47

the conversations that we’re having in

80:49

mental health and as i said right across

80:50

different sectors are very different

80:52

than what they were five or ten years

80:54

ago i’ve had the opportunity of serving

80:56

on the black dog institute board for

80:58

almost seven years now and during that

81:00

time i think we’ve seen a really

81:02

increased awareness across workplaces

81:05

academic and

81:07

other educational institutions and even

81:10

the home

81:11

that um you know mental health can

81:13

affect everybody and in fact you know i

81:16

think the current uh levels are that you

81:18

know one in five australians will

81:20

experience some mental illness at some

81:22

point in their life so that it touches

81:24

each and every one of us and of course

81:27

without spending a large part of our

81:28

lives in the workplace it’s only natural

81:31

that there will be mental illness uh in

81:33

the workplace people do need to think

81:35

about their mental health uh both

81:37

amongst your colleagues amongst your

81:39

staff and especially if you’re a leader

81:41

so i do think that there’s been

81:43

increased awareness on the importance of

81:46

talking about mental health just as we

81:48

also talk about physical health and

81:50

occupational health and safety and the

81:53

conversations have i think fortunately

81:55

become less stigmatized than they used

81:58

to be do you think when it comes to

82:00

modern workplace leadership that part of

82:02

that role is also being a counsellor to

82:04

staff to some extent but i think there

82:07

also needs to be a recognition that a

82:10

mental illness is not something that can

82:13

be at times quickly fixed by counseling

82:16

staff you know you know sometimes i’ve

82:18

seen it in a brisk way like you know get

82:20

over it you know you’re just feeling

82:21

down get out of it

82:23

you know there will be times where yes

82:26

support in the workplace is necessary

82:28

but there will be times also where you

82:30

do need to you know seek professional

82:32

help because with appropriate treatment

82:34

it’s really important to know

82:36

that many people can and do recover from

82:40

mental health illness

82:42

it almost feels like that there needed

82:43

to be some kind of flash point to happen

82:45

for businesses to really take mental

82:47

health seriously and this is something

82:49

that our other guest today annie harvey

82:51

who is a patent interrupter for

82:53

workplaces has noticed across time as

82:55

well

82:56

it’s taken

82:57

a pandemic for companies to put

82:59

well-being mental health and well-being

83:01

at the top of their list to look after

83:04

employees and sometimes people just say

83:06

everything’s getting really serious can

83:08

we just have a bit of joy and can you do

83:10

a laughter session for us which is great

83:13

so annie works with adults and teens to

83:15

help them maximize well-being and

83:16

resilience and she shows people not only

83:19

how to be still just for a few moments

83:21

but also shares her own strategies to

83:23

prevent burnout she works as a keynote

83:25

speaker and runs workshops training in

83:26

one-to-one mentoring and coaching and

83:28

she refers to herself as a patent

83:30

interrupter so what does that mean

83:33

a stint last week for literally 10

83:34

minutes at a conference and there’d been

83:36

a lot of tears through some triggering

83:38

talks and quite often i’m kind of

83:40

brought on as a pattern interrupt at

83:42

conferences after

83:44

things that you know talks that might

83:46

upset people and i’m important to lift

83:48

the mood and still people were crying

83:51

but it was different kinds of tears it

83:53

was quite fascinating to watch room that

83:54

was within three or four minutes what do

83:56

you mean patent interrupt what’s um how

83:58

would you do

83:58

an interrupt so yeah sometimes i’ve just

84:01

been called that so it’s you know when

84:03

you when you are triggered an audience

84:05

is triggered or anyone is triggered by

84:07

something they’ve heard in a talk or on

84:09

the news or whatever

84:11

and i come in and i’m the patent

84:12

interrupter

84:14

to release that laughter really quickly

84:16

and that interrupts your stress response

84:18

and turns turns off your fight or flight

84:20

and turns on your

84:22

um relaxation response really

84:25

so it’s a yeah a bit of a circuit

84:26

breaker i guess you could call it i like

84:28

the idea of you like that’s your

84:30

official job title pattern interrupter

84:32

get it printed on a t-shirt it’s on a

84:34

hat all sorts of weird titles in this

84:36

job yeah annie the activator last week

84:40

so we’ve been talking a little bit about

84:41

burnout earlier in this episode and you

84:44

know we’ve all known someone if not

84:46

ourselves who has either burnt out or

84:48

got very close to that feeling of

84:49

burnout and i feel a lot like the onus

84:51

is often put onto employees for

84:53

self-care but it’s also up to employers

84:55

to provide an environment in which

84:57

burnout doesn’t take hold in the first

84:58

place so at this point we were curious

85:00

to know if jane madden had noticed any

85:02

changes in employer attitude to how

85:04

staff are treated in the workplace

85:06

have you seen much in the way of

85:08

workplaces and employers realizing that

85:11

sometimes their treatment of staff leads

85:13

to poor mental health oh this is a

85:15

tricky area yes there have been some

85:19

recognition of that and the use of

85:22

services like eap both in the public and

85:24

private sector are there so that people

85:27

who may be suffering from mental health

85:29

or need

85:30

you know a neutral or third party to

85:34

talk to

85:35

um can have the right conversations and

85:37

get the right sort of tools if you like

85:39

to manage their mental health and to

85:41

also sort of push back and if necessary

85:44

make legitimate complaints where there

85:46

is really egregious behavior uh

85:48

happening it’s not true to think that

85:51

people with a mental health issue or

85:53

illness can just pull themselves out of

85:55

it and certainly um in some workplaces

85:58

that notion of keeping a stiff upper lip

86:00

and never complaining i think affects

86:03

some people’s

86:04

mental health adversely and it’s good

86:06

that we are realizing you know the fact

86:09

and and fiction of some of these uh

86:13

myths i have noticed recently in some of

86:15

the workplaces that i’ve been in there’s

86:16

been a real shift around the approach to

86:19

what we used to call a sikhi to the

86:21

point where some leaders and managers

86:23

would say themselves that they sometimes

86:25

need a mental health day i wonder if

86:28

this kind of attitude has actually been

86:30

instrumental in helping us to reduce the

86:33

incidence of unplanned leave look um i

86:37

think that’s right andy i think a really

86:39

important thing to keep in mind is you

86:41

know majority of mental illness in the

86:42

workplace is treatable and in some cases

86:45

it is preventable so you know if you’ve

86:48

been really pushing the boat out on

86:51

heavy heavy workload um and you’re

86:53

feeling you know exhausted maybe a bit

86:55

fragile it’s much better to take that

86:58

mental health day than to have a need

87:01

later on you know take three or four

87:03

sick days each month for untreated

87:05

depression or nervous anxiety or nervous

87:08

exhaustion and i think having that

87:10

environment where you are you know

87:12

monitoring your own mental health but

87:14

also you have managers in a workplace

87:16

that’s supportive of people you know

87:18

taking the time as they need and perhaps

87:21

are amenable to people taking you know

87:23

that mental health day as you say it’s a

87:25

good thing and actually the company the

87:27

employer will benefit in the longer term

87:29

because you know it’s an old-fashioned

87:31

saying but there is that stitch in time

87:33

saves nine and it actually i think can

87:36

be relatable to giving ourselves you

87:38

know that sick day that rest day

87:40

permission to have down time uh

87:42

especially if you’ve been working hard

87:44

or you have other factors

87:46

responsibilities in your lives that are

87:49

really causing you a lot of pressure and

87:50

anxiety when it’s come to me leaving

87:52

workplaces it’s never been about the

87:54

money it’s been about the value that i

87:56

feel like um i have as a person if i

88:00

haven’t felt valued then or if i’ve seen

88:03

other people that i feel are treated um

88:05

differently then that’s been my reason

88:08

for doing something else yeah yeah and i

88:11

think the statistics would back you up

88:13

around that that uh you know it’s the

88:15

quality of you know one’s treatment that

88:17

is frequently cited by people you know

88:20

as the reason to leave an organization

88:23

it’s pretty easy for someone to say

88:25

they’re feeling burnt out but annie

88:26

harvey was able to give us a few

88:28

insights into not just what causes it

88:30

but how it manifests in the workplace

88:33

you said we don’t recognize the signs of

88:35

burnout what are they you don’t

88:37

recognize them at all do you reckon

88:38

you’ve ever been in that space oh 100

88:40

percent but

88:43

you said we often don’t um recognize

88:45

them i suppose we recognize it when

88:48

we’ve hit the wall at the end and it’s

88:49

all too hard and we quit the job

88:51

um

88:52

but maybe there are some signs earlier

88:54

on that might be good for us to know

88:56

about

88:57

also

88:58

if you i mean the world health

89:00

organization a couple of years ago um

89:03

basically said that

89:05

burnout is a syndrome and it results

89:07

from

89:08

chronic workplace stress over a period

89:10

of time that hasn’t been successfully

89:11

managed now obviously it’s not just

89:12

about workplace stress we bring all our

89:15

other stresses into our workplace

89:18

but they give us three things to look

89:19

out for you kind of have to have all

89:21

three so one of them is emotional

89:22

exhaustion or sometimes i call that the

89:24

sunday night feeling

89:26

but you have to have it regularly it’s

89:28

not like a one-off and then attached to

89:30

that is cynicism about you know your job

89:33

or your family or your work colleagues

89:35

or whatever

89:36

and then the third thing to have on top

89:38

of that is what they call reduced

89:40

self-efficacy which is

89:44

a reduced belief in you being competent

89:46

in doing your job basically

89:48

and if you have all three

89:50

in theory you’re you’re on a journey to

89:52

burning out if you’re not already there

89:55

does that make sense yeah and i hadn’t

89:57

actually thought of burnout as being i

89:59

suppose a um

90:00

a medical term i i thought it was just

90:03

being that emotional feeling but um now

90:07

you define it like that i can definitely

90:09

say that i’ve experienced those three in

90:12

uh situations where uh

90:15

it didn’t take much longer than the

90:17

starts of those feelings to you know it

90:19

was all too hard

90:20

exactly yeah and i think you know i

90:22

think it’s really critical that

90:24

people know how close they are to you

90:26

know what we call falling off the cliff

90:27

because once you fall off once you’re

90:29

burnt out

90:30

it takes a really long time to heal it’s

90:32

not like you know bouncing back as we

90:34

like to call it after a couple of weeks

90:36

it can take

90:37

six months or even up to two years to

90:39

actually heal from that so i think it’s

90:42

great that the

90:43

world health organization have kind of

90:44

put it on the map for us and recognize

90:46

it as a syndrome

90:48

i know i’ve walked the cliff face of

90:50

burnout many times throughout my career

90:52

and from earlier in the episode it

90:54

certainly sounds like i fell off the

90:55

cliff

90:57

that’s not to say though that all

90:58

businesses are doing a bad job no no not

91:00

at all i mean i’ve worked with some

91:01

really great businesses who put

91:03

incentives and activities in place

91:05

to improve staff well-being we do have

91:07

some doubts though about sometimes

91:09

whether the tactics that employers put

91:11

in are tone deaf we’ve explored that

91:13

with jane madden

91:14

i’m thinking there’s also a level of

91:16

risk with some of the ways that some

91:18

companies actually do try to promote a

91:20

good culture i’m thinking of a

91:22

particular example where a company that

91:24

had a mandated day every month where

91:26

they had cake for everybody and then

91:28

every now and then they decided they

91:29

might actually donate the proceeds of

91:31

that to a charity or for one reason or

91:34

other it didn’t happen but then when it

91:35

didn’t happen that actually bred

91:37

suspicion amongst them yeah and it’s

91:39

funny because as i said that that mark

91:42

of integrity to say that you’ll do

91:44

something and then not to follow through

91:46

it makes people you know not have the

91:48

trust in their team leaders in their

91:51

executives and it may only be a small

91:53

thing but people do have to deliver what

91:55

they say they do and quite quickly trust

91:57

can break down it can take a long time

91:59

to build but it can you know quite

92:02

quickly uh uh break down and even

92:05

schools like you know harvard business

92:06

school are talking about you know the

92:08

absolute criticality of authentic

92:11

leadership and having you know people

92:14

committed to saying what they’re doing

92:15

and working according to

92:18

how they say they’re going to work and

92:19

then if it’s not happening reporting and

92:21

that honesty that integrity

92:24

is important even though it might be uh

92:26

bearing get bad news or acknowledging

92:29

that you haven’t been able to meet you

92:30

know ambitious targets that boards or

92:33

the company had set it kind of feels

92:35

like we need to focus more on the

92:36

quality of relationships rather than

92:38

giving people things and those things

92:40

will happen more naturally if the

92:41

relationships are good yeah there’s a

92:43

really interesting debate waging at the

92:45

moment about how important you know

92:47

performance bonuses and remuneration and

92:50

i know from some of the surveys i’ve

92:53

seen that particularly in the last 12

92:55

months with what we’ve gone through with

92:57

coronavirus is people realize money

93:00

you know a certain amount is certainly

93:02

necessary but it doesn’t necessarily buy

93:03

your happiness and if you’re feeling you

93:05

know you’ve got flexibility with your

93:07

workplace that your you know

93:09

contribution is valued you’re respected

93:11

by colleagues they’re also respectful of

93:13

you know other pressures upon you

93:16

these things you know you have a much

93:17

better monetary uh

93:19

reward than

93:21

you know she had dollars and cents

93:23

uh and so that it’s entered a new phase

93:26

i think with uh what what workplaces

93:28

have done uh in the last uh 12 to 18

93:31

months and the future of the workplace

93:32

is really really changing you know that

93:35

presenteeism just being there and

93:37

turning up is you know so much less

93:39

important now people are looking to see

93:42

what the real contribution of people are

93:44

when they’re not actually in the same

93:46

physical location offices in australia

93:48

aren’t going to be the same uh as they

93:50

were before covert people are coming in

93:53

not just not to work because they can

93:55

work anywhere they’re coming in um you

93:58

know to collaborate so meeting spaces

94:00

are more important and the second reason

94:02

that i hear people are coming in is to

94:04

for all those cultural reasons you know

94:06

to connect with their colleagues to see

94:08

each other to have a sense that they’re

94:10

working as part of a team not just you

94:12

know in isolated studies and bedrooms

94:14

across the country um and i think that’s

94:17

changing you know the way organizations

94:19

will function going forward and the way

94:22

organizations will also treat uh

94:24

employees but i think it can be a new

94:27

normal that will be better both for

94:29

mental health and hopefully for

94:31

organizational culture generally so what

94:33

are the hallmarks of some of the better

94:35

cultures out there that you’ve seen the

94:36

standout characteristic uh to me is uh

94:39

integrity in the workplace so to have

94:42

ceos and executives saying they would

94:45

like to have this type of culture and

94:46

then not modeling or being authentic

94:49

themselves with regard to it so

94:52

if you have authentic leadership if you

94:56

have a culture that i said

94:58

earlier is respectful is you know

95:00

supportive of employees as individuals

95:03

makes everyone feel you know valued

95:06

their respective roles in an

95:08

organization you’ll find that it’s a

95:09

happier workplace it’s a more positive

95:11

culture and the results

95:14

will be higher too

95:16

burnout is a pretty big pain point for

95:18

businesses throughout the country

95:19

without much consensus on how to

95:21

approach it

95:22

i saw um

95:24

the stats i think said what we lose 33

95:26

billion dollars to burn out i’m i’m

95:28

going off the top of my head there is

95:30

that close to what it is well i would

95:31

think it would be a lot more across the

95:33

world at the moment yeah good point and

95:35

certainly in the next 18 months two

95:37

years i reckon so how can workplaces

95:39

kind of combat that then i mean if if

95:42

the way that we treat employees

95:44

heads them in that direction and then

95:45

it’s i mean not only bad for mental

95:47

health but bad for their bottom line

95:49

yeah absolutely i think um you know we

95:51

live in a bit of a blame society and

95:53

quite often as if we’re employed we

95:56

would blame the company for our work

95:59

hours and lack of balance and all that

96:01

kind of thing but where i sit is where

96:03

you can take responsibility i mean yes

96:05

it’s definitely down to the company

96:07

with regards to having all the processes

96:09

and policies in place certainly

96:11

supporting people who have serious

96:13

mental illness but i kind of sit in the

96:15

the prevention side i guess people being

96:17

proactive and and education because so

96:20

many people don’t even know some of the

96:22

signs of burnout i guess um

96:24

and then how they can put some really

96:26

simple

96:27

strategies and that’s really where i

96:29

come from is simple that they can walk

96:31

out the door and put into practice in

96:33

their life pretty quickly but yeah it’s

96:35

it’s a really big thing and also i talk

96:37

about we’ve heard a lot about

96:38

absenteeism and we can measure that but

96:40

there’s lots of

96:42

presenteeism and i would definitely have

96:44

been guilty of that even potentially

96:46

when i was a schoolteacher

96:48

10 years ago

96:49

was you know you’re kind of there but

96:50

the lights aren’t on kind of thing if

96:53

you know what i mean

96:55

that’s a term that i um i was really

96:57

struck by when we were reading through

96:59

some of the research this concept of

97:01

presenteeism do we need to sort of take

97:03

a step back and learn how to actually be

97:07

be more relaxed do we need to look after

97:09

ourselves better in the workplace yeah

97:11

absolutely and i think you know

97:13

sometimes i do a presentation called

97:15

it’s not bubbles and band-aids so a lot

97:18

of people will say well i look after my

97:20

well-being i have my regular massage and

97:23

i have bubbles with my friends at the

97:24

weekend or i have a bubble bath and i’m

97:26

not telling people to stop any of that

97:28

but i think that’s often a band-aid it’s

97:31

a short-term strategy and we need to

97:33

looking at within businesses and without

97:34

with ourselves how we can have a

97:36

long-term strategy for how we look after

97:38

ourselves and it’s it’s the age-old

97:40

thing of you know if we could fly

97:42

anywhere at the moment safely

97:44

we’d be told to put our oxygen mask on

97:46

first before helping others and i’ve

97:48

only got to this space of teaching

97:50

people this because i didn’t used to do

97:52

that i would never you know we put

97:54

ourselves at the bottom of the list and

97:55

it’s only through learning the hard way

97:57

that i’ve climbed back out up up to the

97:59

top of the cliff and now teaching people

98:01

how to do that or the signs if nothing

98:03

else i like this idea of keeping the

98:04

bubble bars in the mix but what are some

98:06

of the other things that we could

98:08

benefit from looking at when i look at

98:10

self-care um you know we all have we all

98:12

know what our own individual self-care

98:14

strategies might be but i’ve i try to

98:17

think about things that maybe people

98:18

can’t google so i look at what healthy

98:21

relationships are jim rohn once famously

98:24

said with we’re the average of the five

98:25

people we spend most time with

98:28

so if you if you just count that on your

98:30

hand and you two might have to include

98:31

your cats in that as well yeah

98:34

there’s a bit of laziness going on there

98:35

there’s a lot of destruction going on in

98:37

my house

98:39

um and then you’re you know you’re the

98:40

average of those five people so if you

98:42

wanted to in if you want to start

98:44

looking after yourself or i know

98:46

learning a new skill practicing

98:47

meditation or learning how to swim or

98:49

whatever it is or going on a particular

98:51

diet you don’t a lot you don’t marry

98:54

condo those people and ditch them out of

98:56

your lives but you start bringing people

98:58

into your circle of influence that can

99:00

raise that average because we all know

99:02

those people that don’t encourage us to

99:04

do that necessarily and i think when

99:06

we’re sick or we’re not feeling great we

99:08

don’t necessarily hang around with the

99:10

right people or the right strategies so

99:12

it’s not just people it’s books and

99:14

podcasts like this all sorts of things

99:16

that you can raise your average in

99:18

depending on how you’re going to look

99:20

after yourself

99:21

so just like sally goldner told us in

99:22

the last episode one of the best ways to

99:24

avoid burnout is to make sure that

99:26

workplace values align authentically

99:29

with the values of those working in the

99:30

business it’s not always going to be a

99:32

perfect fit though you know let’s be

99:33

honest we know from our conversations

99:35

with suzanne and hugh that perfection is

99:38

you know and it’s an elusive beast so

99:40

for those times when imperfection

99:42

pinches us we wanted to know what kind

99:44

of resources are available like what

99:46

would someone like jane madden do

99:48

what are some of the tools that are

99:49

available to help people in the

99:50

workplace with that there’s a lot of

99:53

online tools now certainly most of the

99:55

organizations have through googling like

99:58

dog institute mental health workplace or

100:00

any of the other major organizations

100:03

there’s a lot of videos that give

100:04

real-life depictions about scenarios

100:07

that have played out you know

100:09

there are some responsibilities

100:11

individually if you really your mental

100:14

health condition is impairing your

100:16

ability to do any requirements of your

100:19

job you might be able to get some

100:20

reasonable adjustments that help you

100:22

perform your role but it may be that you

100:25

also are impairing the team affecting

100:28

others and there is i think now a

100:31

requirement that with insurance company

100:33

that if you don’t disclose a mental

100:35

illness it can disentitle someone from

100:37

workers compensation you know should

100:39

they suffer major exacerbation of a

100:42

mental health illness so i think one

100:43

needs to sort of be brave to have some

100:46

of those discussions and to talk about

100:49

what is possible and it’s good that

100:51

we’ve got anonymous tools that gives us

100:54

ways to start the conversation no matter

100:56

how difficult it may be and i think the

100:59

one thing that i just want to remind you

101:01

of listeners is that it isn’t something

101:03

that is off to the side and something

101:05

that people you know can’t talk about it

101:08

affects so many of us and will affect so

101:10

many of us in our life there’s virtually

101:12

no one i know in all my different roles

101:14

that hasn’t either got themselves a

101:16

mental health problem or had one or had

101:19

family members we’re all touched by it

101:21

and we just sometimes need to sort of

101:24

take those first steps and you may be

101:25

surprised to find you know your manager

101:27

or your colleagues actually may well be

101:30

much more sympathetic and understanding

101:32

than sometimes you fear they might be

101:34

it’s been a bit of a stroll to make this

101:36

episode’s point

101:38

this has been a long walk do i need the

101:40

harp again

101:41

hang on we got if we got a flashback to

101:43

an earlier episode

101:48

this heart sound effect was worth its

101:50

money which was nothing i didn’t pay for

101:52

it it came with a road caster oh you

101:54

know what if this had been an actual

101:56

walk i think i would have burnt off at

101:58

least a mars bar by now it’s been a

101:59

pretty long stroll as long as it wasn’t

102:01

upstairs because gays don’t walk

102:02

upstairs i’ve heard correct exactly

102:04

we’re too lazy

102:07

um hugh kearns though back to hugh

102:09

kearns yeah yeah he made a really great

102:11

point about creating something new and

102:13

how we louise to find success for us is

102:16

it just about the money apparently not

102:18

or we’d have more um or is it about

102:20

being able to live our authentic values

102:23

while holding a space

102:25

where we and those that we work with can

102:27

look after ourselves

102:29

it kind of feels like culturally we’ve

102:31

kind of had a bit of a shift in the

102:32

definition of success as well because

102:34

when thinking back to the last olympic

102:36

games our medalists would get bronze but

102:39

they were being described as failures

102:42

through a lot of the media for not

102:43

getting gold do we need to have a bit of

102:45

a look at ourselves and and back off

102:47

well again yeah that comes back to the

102:49

expectations doesn’t it you know like in

102:51

what people expect of it and again

102:53

australia was having a fairly good run

102:55

for a while you think that’s what we

102:56

should have all the time and but that’s

102:58

probably not realistic either is you

102:59

know

103:01

for australia doing well you know all

103:03

the other countries are trying as hard

103:04

as well you know they’re just not

103:05

backing off and so they’re trying as

103:06

well and so it’s unrealistic to expect

103:08

you should win all the time you know why

103:10

why wouldn’t other people win

103:11

occasionally and so that’s that

103:13

expectations thing and that’s when yeah

103:14

sometimes you just have to realize no

103:16

this was the best we could do right now

103:18

that would be lovely to win but not

103:20

everyone’s going to win and people have

103:22

to learn how to cope with not winning

103:24

and other people winning and cope with

103:26

that because if only the winners can be

103:28

happy that means there’s an awful lot of

103:29

people who are going to be pretty

103:30

miserable in the world and so you have

103:31

to accept that people do the best they

103:33

can sometimes win songs lose you have to

103:36

go with that and again that’s when i

103:37

sort of get annoyed people think winning

103:38

is all that matters well that’s a fairly

103:41

limited sort of view of the world what

103:43

about all the other people sometimes you

103:44

do your best and sometimes it doesn’t

103:46

work out for a variety of reasons

103:48

okay now i mean

103:50

it only feels like i’m being slightly

103:51

attacked now um which is good

103:54

but it’s true yeah we love you

103:57

it’s true though like not everyone can

103:59

win a trophy yeah it doesn’t mean that

104:00

we can’t be happy with our slice of the

104:02

pie though we just need to get out of

104:04

our own way and cut ourselves a nice

104:06

slice

104:07

that’s an analogy i can get behind

104:08

unlike your second-hand chairs from the

104:12

from the second-hand chairs behind the

104:14

line in the sand what the macaroon is

104:16

it’s your second hand i’ve never heard

104:18

that before are you just making up

104:20

analogies

104:21

yeah

104:22

i love making up analogies

104:25

there are probably a few people are a

104:26

very small number of you who have a

104:28

fairly accurate view of themselves which

104:30

is i’m not the best i’m not the worst

104:32

i’m just doing what i can hear you know

104:33

this is okay and don’t spend too much

104:36

time doubting themselves they just go

104:37

look let’s get on with it and that’s

104:38

probably a fairly functional way to

104:39

behave really which is yeah look i’ll do

104:41

what i can

104:42

and we’ll cope with that as it comes out

104:44

but not so much worried about how other

104:46

people feel me or see me however that’s

104:48

that’s a fairly small number of people

104:50

really i think who are in that category

104:51

and for the rest of us and myself

104:53

included it’s come to terms with this is

104:55

a fairly normal thing in life that

104:57

questioning process and then get on with

104:59

things

105:00

and there’s something else that really

105:02

stuck with us the last time we spoke to

105:03

hugh

105:04

so is it useful then to kind of have a

105:06

bit of a look at who the best judge of

105:08

what failure is maybe it’s a bit of a

105:10

clumsy way of putting it but worst case

105:12

scenario if this project fails and we

105:14

don’t make money then worst case

105:16

scenario is the bank would foreclose

105:18

homelessness that kind of thing and the

105:20

realistic nature of those sorts of

105:22

things

105:23

for anybody in life it’s probably good

105:25

to have a plan b you know like let’s say

105:27

we do this thing what if it doesn’t work

105:29

well actually i have another fallback

105:30

position i can do something else we can

105:32

get our money whatever because

105:35

if there’s no plan b like if you take a

105:36

risk and the whole thing falls apart

105:38

that there’s a lot of pressure on at

105:39

that point and it comes some sense of

105:41

pressure is good it makes it work but

105:42

also it’s a bit scary and so then you

105:45

are will you take a risk will you do

105:46

things because this could be this could

105:48

be the end of the world so my view is

105:49

it’s probably good to have a plan b

105:51

which is well if that doesn’t work we

105:53

can manage another way it might not be

105:55

the best but we can manage it in some

105:56

way so if this fails well hang on

105:58

we have something else we can fall back

106:00

on along that way

106:01

instead of failure the way i view it

106:04

let’s say you do something new uh if it

106:06

doesn’t work okay it wasn’t what we

106:07

expected but we can do something else

106:09

with it or we can read we can reimagine

106:10

it or see it in a different way or

106:12

something like that right rather failure

106:14

the failure word i suppose tends to be a

106:16

final failure there is no come back from

106:18

it like it is the end is doomed and

106:20

generally life isn’t like that you know

106:22

if this doesn’t work yeah well we can do

106:23

something else and we’ll have a plan b

106:25

here we’ll work our way around that sort

106:26

of thing and i suppose that’s where a

106:28

more sensible approach would be is yeah

106:30

give it your best shot but realize if it

106:32

doesn’t work there’ll be something else

106:33

if you’re doubting yourself or you feel

106:35

like an imposter every now and again

106:36

welcome to the human race there’s

106:38

nothing wrong with you this is a normal

106:40

enough feeling every now and again to

106:41

have that thing but then don’t let it

106:43

stop you doing things don’t stop you

106:44

doing the things you enjoy doing and do

106:46

them because you want to do them i think

106:47

that’s the sort of summary is this is

106:49

this is a fairly normal thing and get on

106:51

with things and try out the things you

106:53

like doing and enjoy

106:54

so

106:55

here’s the next uncomfortable question

106:59

did we need more uncomfortable questions

107:01

in this episode

107:03

haven’t we all had enough

107:06

i think there’s going to be a few more

107:07

this is episode 11 out of 42 anyway

107:10

why am i still paying for therapy then i

107:13

don’t know i don’t know

107:14

i don’t know um but the question the

107:17

next uncomfortable question you ready

107:18

for it

107:19

how do we plan for the worst case

107:21

scenario

107:22

next time on reframe of mind we’ll speak

107:25

to derek mcmanus who has turned his

107:27

near-death experience in the line of

107:29

duty into a durability model of strength

107:32

and when we’re stepping into an unknown

107:33

territory what do we need to look at

107:36

my perspective to this overall is i went

107:38

to work i got shot i fell down i got up

107:40

i got better i went back to work i made

107:42

a choice to become a policeman i became

107:45

a sniper i became an underwater recovery

107:48

diver which is very dangerous in his own

107:50

realm i went away and trained with the

107:52

sas and counter terrorism i knew that

107:55

that job that i was choosing to do was

107:57

dangerous so i had to take a very close

107:59

look at the choices that i was making

108:01

and the possible consequences of that if

108:04

you’re concerned about yourself or

108:05

someone you know please seek

108:06

professional advice and support you can

108:09

contact beyond blue on 1300 224 636 or

108:13

at beyondblue.org dot a u or you can

108:16

contact lifeline on thirteen eleven

108:18

fourteen or lifeline.org dot a u more

108:21

resources can be found on our website

108:24

you’ve been hearing our story now we

108:26

really wanna hear yours connect with at

108:28

reframeofmind on instagram facebook

108:30

tiktok and twitter or connect with at

108:32

welcome change media on linkedin you can

108:34

also contact us via

108:36

reframeofmind.com.u with your stories or

108:38

suggestions for future topics we’d like

108:41

to thank today’s guests for sharing

108:42

their personal stories and insights and

108:44

for more information on any of the

108:45

subjects guests or references used in

108:48

this episode please see our show notes

108:50

or reframeofmind.com.edu

108:52

reframe of mind is a welcome change

108:54

media production

108:56

[Music]

109:00

how many people have picked their nose

109:02

listening to me i wonder

109:04

i’m sure they’ve done a lot of things

109:05

listening to you in the in the prisons i

109:08

used to

109:09

i told you i used to get faxes from the

109:10

prisons occasionally no yeah really

109:13

there were stories around that sometimes

109:15

prisoners tried to request songs to talk

109:17

to other people through song come on

109:19

eileen is not a request for the song

109:22

it’s code for something else looking out

109:24

my back door

109:26

is

109:28

got one hand in my pocket um

109:30

[Laughter]

109:33

jailbreak by hctc and tonight tonight by

109:36

the smashing pumpkins

109:40

[Applause]

109:41

[Music]